Russian Flyover Takes Navy by Surprise.

JimR

New member
I'm pretty sure this was discussed here back when it occurred, but it's the main article on WorldNetDaily.com this morning, and there's some additional follow-up.


This is one of the reasons why we MUST have W as President. There seems to be a lot of poo-poo brewing out in the world, and eight years of Clinton, Madeline Albright, and Sandy Berger have been disasterous from a realpolitic standpoint. These people are, at best, clueless, and, at worst, traitorous (Clinton and the Chinese). We need the A-Team on foreign policy and defense. Comparing Berger and Albright to Colin Powell and Condi Rice is laughable. It's like comparing 4-year old T-ball players to the MLB All-Stars.


WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS
Russian flyover takes
Navy by surprise?

Ship personnel say incident more
serious threat than Pentagon admits

By Jon E. Dougherty
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

A pair of Russian warplanes that made at least three high-speed passes over a U.S. aircraft carrier stationed in the Sea of Japan in October constituted a much more serious threat than the Pentagon has admitted and were easily in a position to destroy the ship if the planes had had hostile intentions, say Navy personnel.
According to reports, a Russian air force Su-24 "Fencer" accompanied by an Su-27 "Flanker" made unopposed passes over the USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63) on Oct. 9, as the carrier was being refueled.

Russian fighters and reconnaissance planes made a second attempt to get close to the carrier on Nov. 9 -- a repeat performance for which the Pentagon, as well as eyewitnesses aboard ship, said the carrier was prepared. But it was the first incident in October that caused alarm.

Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon said during a regularly scheduled press briefing Nov. 30 that the Russian fighters were detected on radar well in advance of their high-speed passes. Naval officers aboard ship who spoke of the incident on the condition of anonymity agreed.

However, at the time the carrier's combat information center alerted the ship's commander, Capt. Allen G. Myers, that the Russian fighters were inbound, none of the carrier's fighters were airborne. The ship carries 85 aircraft, according to Navy figures, and has a crew of over 5,500.

Witnesses said Myers immediately ordered the launch of alert fighters, but the ship's scheduled fighter squadron was on "Alert-30" status -- a minimum launch time of 30 minutes where pilots are "in the ready room" but are not sitting in cockpits waiting to be launched.

Bacon told reporters only that there "may have been a slight delay" in getting the interceptors in the air, explaining that because the Kitty Hawk was taking on fuel, it was not sailing fast enough to launch its aircraft.

One naval officer onboard the ship said, "40 minutes after the CO [commanding officer] called away the alerts," the Russian planes "made a 500-knot, 200-foot pass directly over the tower" of the carrier.


EA-6B Prowler lands on the deck of the USS Kitty Hawk.

Before the Kitty Hawk could get a single plane airborne, the Russian fighters made two more passes. Worse, witnesses said, the first plane off the deck was an EA-6B Prowler -- a plane used primarily for electronic jamming of an enemy's radar and air defenses, not a fighter capable of intercepting another warplane.

The EA-6B "ended up in a one-versus-one with a Flanker just in front of the ship," one witness said. "The Flanker was all over his a--. He was screaming for help when finally a [F/A-18] Hornet from our sister squadron got off the deck and made the intercept. It was too late."

Naval personnel noted that "the entire crew watched overhead as the Russians made a mockery of our feeble attempt of intercepting them."

The Clinton administration downplayed the incident.

"In neither case did the [Navy] feel that any protest was warranted, and, therefore, no protest was made to the Russians," Bacon said last month.

Moscow, however, considers the incident much more serious, if not a "victory" of sorts, considering Russian aircrews have not overflown a U.S. carrier in three decades.

The mission, which according to Russian military officials who spoke with the BBC was billed as a "top-secret intelligence operation," was specifically designed to test U.S. carrier group defenses.

"To determine [the Kitty Hawk battle group's] complement, their order of forming up, their strength and type of weapons, including the aircraft onboard a carrier, the actions of the duty personnel, any temporary features," were all elements Russian military planners were attempting to gauge, according to Yuriy Ulanov, Russian chief of intelligence for the Far East air force and air defense group, who spoke to the British news agency.

"We went down as low as possible and from the direction of the Japanese coast -- without crossing the Japanese border, of course," said Aleksandr Renev, the reconnaissance mission's squadron commander. "We went over the aircraft carrier. It looked as if they were not expecting us."

Indeed, according to one witness aboard the Kitty Hawk, U.S. personnel on deck likely were surprised.

"Four days [after the flyovers], the Russian intelligence agency e-mailed the CO of the Kitty Hawk and enclosed pictures they had taken of dudes scrambling around the flight deck, trying to get airborne," the witness explained.

Yesterday, Jon Yoshishige, media director for the U.S. Pacific Fleet, downplayed the incident, telling WorldNetDaily it was likely the Russian press was "exaggerating" it for public-relations purposes.

"Reports by some Russian media misrepresent and exaggerate a meeting when several Russian aircraft flew out to collect reconnaissance photographs of USS Kitty Hawk several weeks ago," Yoshishige said in response to an e-mail inquiry about the incident.

"The reports imply that USS Kitty Hawk was unaware or unprepared when in fact the approaching aircraft had been detected, tracked and identified for an extended period of time and then escorted by U.S. aircraft," he said. "It is not uncommon for aircraft from other nations to occasionally approach our ships at sea to conduct routine surveillance. In each of these cases, the aircraft were detected, identified, tracked and escorted if appropriate.

"Our aircraft carriers and ships maintain a high situational awareness of the threats in the air, on and under the sea," Yoshishige said.

His assessment was echoed by Myers when the carrier returned to his home port in Yokosuka, Japan, Nov. 20, after 55 days at sea.

"We had a superb deployment," Myers was quoted as saying by the ship's public affairs department. "We've worked very hard at perfecting our core competency -- conducting carrier operations at sea -- and made great strides in the effort to preserve Hawk for years to come. We are, and will remain, ready for any mission we may be called on to execute."

The BBC, however, said that it was evident by the photographs taken by the Russian jets that there was "panic aboard" when the planes made their over-flights.

"The Kitty Hawk was caught unawares while taking on fuel from a tanker, and the pilots saw the aircraft carrier start to jettison the fuel line to speed up the ship," most likely to launch its interceptor aircraft.

The BBC report also substantiates what witnesses aboard the carrier said regarding the amount of time it took to finally launch the first aircraft.

"It took the Americans some five minutes" after the first flyover "to scramble fighter-interceptors," the BBC said. "The Russian intelligence officers managed to make two passes over the deck of the aircraft carrier and to photograph the Kitty Hawk."

Said Yoshishige, "The Navy uses a wide array of information/intelligence sources to provide the necessary data to determine intentions and classify any potential threats and takes the appropriate actions to address them."

"We regard the Cold War as being over," Bacon said in November. "And although we clearly monitor [Russian] ships and airplanes ... we keep an eye on what the Russians are up to.

"But we are well-trained, and we're ready to deal with these episodes," Bacon added.

Another recent incident suggests that while the Cold War may not be officially "on" again, clearly Moscow is taking a more aggressive stance against the U.S.

In late November, Russia dispatched five strategic bombers to bases in the Far East -- opposite Alaska and near Japan -- "in apparent preparation for training runs to probe U.S. air defenses around Alaska," Agence France-Presse reported Nov. 30.

Pentagon officials may have disclosed the Russian air force movements to let Moscow know the U.S. was still capable of monitoring Russian military activity and was actively doing so.

In response to the deployment of the bombers -- propeller-driven Tu-95 "Bear" aircraft capable of delivering standard bomb loads or conventional and nuclear-tipped cruise missiles -- the Pentagon and Canadian defense ministry officials dispatched F-15 and CF-18 fighters to forward bases in Alaska.

The Pentagon said a pair of Tu-95's was sent to a base at Anadyr on the Bering Sea, while three others were dispatched to a base at Tiksi, on the Laptev Sea in eastern Siberia.

Officials said bombers from those bases flew missions to test U.S. air defenses in March and in September 1999 as well.
 
Troubling!

I'm surprised I have heard nothing of this before now. It may have contradicted our Vice President's assessment of the military.
 
Now this really Pi**es me off. Putting our military personal at risk like this.... there is simply no excuse and yes I do consider this a very material blunder. Those responsible from the president to the captain need to be replaced. We don't need another pearl harbor.
 
Having direct experience and knowledge of the issues involved, the Navy is completely correct when they say it is no big deal for foreign aircraft to respond to a carrier group and even overfly it.

The big deal is that there wasn't a single fighter escorting the foreign planes when it happened. That is a failure of such monumental proportions that people would be out of jobs right now in any real military force.

The crap about "we regard the Cold War as being over" is BS too. In 1997, the USS George Washington carrier group was met by the first naval recon in some time from the Russians. A couple of Tu-142 BEAR Fs came out to say hello. Those BEARs were greeted with fighter escort at a hundred miles from the carrier - and not everbody in the carrier group was pleased at that response.

Letting nuclear capable bombers like the FENCER overfly your carrier is exactly what it sounds like - a horrible screw-up and a pretty big screw-up at that since the ball has to be dropped at several different commands for such an event to even happen.
 
Wow ... this is pitiful

And, the captain sounds like Al Gore ...
"We had a superb deployment," Myers was quoted as saying by the ship's public affairs department. "We've worked very hard at perfecting our core competency -- conducting carrier operations at sea -- and made great strides in the effort to preserve Hawk for years to come. We are, and will remain, ready for any mission we may be called on to execute."

'Superb'? 'Core competency'? This guy sounds like some business school sharpie, not a warrior. Pretty spooky. Looking forward to seeing all the comments on this thread.

Regards from AZ
 
As I said in another post, Algore represents a clear and present danger to the security of the USA. This incident illustrates that the danger began with Clinton. It will increase if Gore steals this election. I fell very strongly that a Gore presidency will destabilize the world picture significantly.
 
Off-paw, Hardball, I'd say the CAP was sitting in the Ready Room. Three overflights, before a single plane was launched, and when we do launch -- it's a Prowler. I'll bet that Flanker pilot was laughing his tail off while he was chasing the Prowler all over the sky.

"Four days [after the flyovers], the Russian intelligence agency e-mailed the CO of the Kitty Hawk and enclosed pictures they had taken of dudes scrambling around the flight deck, trying to get airborne," the witness explained.

Sent him the recon photos. That's classic. The CO of that flattop needs to be reassigned to iceberg watching duty.

LawDog
 
waitone...THAT's what scares me.

I think what this incident proves is that our readiness is way too low. That carrier and who know how many other ships could have been taken out if anyone had wanted to pre-empt.

What are China, Korea, Iraq, Libya, etc. thinking when they read this?

And we no longer have enough carriers that there is a replacement standing by. Any loss is a near-permanent reduction in force. If anyone succeeds in taking out a carrier in a given theater, the balance of power in that region just shifted pretty dramatically.

Who's tagline is this? "If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going right now, you're not paying attention"
 
I'm not sure I would be so quick to judge the captain. We all know about how the military has been gutted....might this not be an example?

I'm not Navy, so I don't know about ready time for planes. I DO know that a constant CAP costs a LOT of money, and clinton hasn't been very supportive. Jet fuel, or a new Lexus for that poor unemployed mother of eleven....

How much in dollars would an ALERT-5 cost over an ALERT-30? How much for a constant CAP? I would look more towards finance that incompetence....
 
George, good point, but I would think a diligent and conscientious Captain would balance the cost of CAP with the cost of replacing an entire carrier, with crew and associated gear.

If a Russian spy plane can do three flybys, then a Sopwith Camel loaded with kaboomite and flown by a Yemeni with visions of Paradise and houris can do one lawn dart on the deck.

LawDog
 
Risk assessment.

So much we don't know about this incident. Flyovers by the Russians are rather commonplace but often (far from always) they are escorted by our own aircraft. It would be hoped that we knew where those aircraft came from, who crewed them and what they were carrying for ordinance.

While doing underway replenishment, depending on the estimated time alongside the support ships, if a CAP is maintained then tanker aircraft must also be airborne. Very expensive X 2.

Depending on wind and sea state, sometimes it is possible to maintain CAP on the cats, ready for launch in a couple of minutes. Favorible conditions for that set up are not common in a replenishment scenario.

Emergency break-away in the event of rapidly going from replenishment course and formation to flight operations can be VERY expensive. Most likely loss of expensive equipment, possible damage to the ships concerned and the ever present danger to crew.

Used to be that if a carrier was replenishing, there would always be another carrier in the area to cover the operation. Now we have cut back so much that there is often no back up.

The report of mad scrambling (panic) on the flight deck could well be the impression of someone who is not familiar with normal carrier operations. To the novice, flight operations look like chaos.......to the initiated it looks more like a bizarre ballet with intensity unimaginable to most.

Sam...been on both ends of that stick
 
Not In MY U.S. Freekin NAVY! The game has not been played this way until recently. The Kitty Hawk was no spring chicken back in 1970 but she wouldn't have gotten caught with her pants down like that. The person in charge of the fleet/battle group operation should and most likely will be put out to pasture {I hope}. As for the Kitty Hawk, why are our fighting men and women still serving on a keel that was laid down in 1956? Is the "Sinking Sara" still in commission?
Off My Box Now
 
Guys hear me out.

You are not getting the whole story here.

Remember the ole saying, “There are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth”.

Speaking from 18 going on 19 year of Navy service all of it in NAVAIR, having 9 Carrier Cruises and 1 war to my credit I assure you. NO CAPTAIN OF ANY U.S. NAVY WARSHIP WOULD LET ANY AIRCRAFT GO UNCHALLENGED WITHIN THE BOUNDARY OF WEAPONS FREE ZONE DURING A TIME OF STRATEGIC AND LOGISTICAL WEAKNESS!

I as well as many of my squadron mates have read this story and we all agree something is amiss here. Now exactly what is erroneous is anyone’s call.

I have sat Alert 60, Alert 30, Ready 15 and Ready 5 more times than you would probably care to hear about. I have launched on intercepts ranging from stray airliners and lost weather balloons to pelicans and UFO’s. So believe me when I say our orders were simple and clear. Challenge twice shoot once.

No Captain will endanger his crew or his ship like this; people lose commands and trash careers for accomplishing far less.

On the one and only time I was ever party to an unplanned airborne intercept was during our voyage to the gulf in Sept of 1990. We were going to war and the bad guys knew it, we had attempted overflights on occasion but none were successful until we entered the Med.

We initiated an intercept of an aircraft prior to entering the Suez and followed it around for almost 30 minutes before the crew radioed us for permission to make a photo pass of the Carrier (or Boat as we call’em). Respectfully we relayed this request to the Skipper and it was granted. So we then escorted him around our Battle Group, he made multiple passes over the ship and then radioed to us, “his thanks and that he had his pictures, he was going home now”.

Sometimes we played these games with the Russians; we have swapped jokes with them, swapped shipboard addresses with them and exchanged mail etc.

The Air Force guys in Alaska for years have playfully exchanged air-to-air duels with Russian fighters in international airspace.

In the late 80’s a pair of F-15’s caught a Russian Mig-23 to Far East when the strong winter winds changed direction cutting into his fuel reserves. As they escorted him back he radioed that he didn’t have the fuel to make the nearest Russian Airfield and would have to ditch. The Eagle drivers knew that if he did at the present water temp that he would surly die. So after radioing this dilemma to the base word made it’s way to the CO who ordered them to offer him safe passage to the AFB and fuel for the trip home. He accepted and was guided to safety and then allowed to return home. This was not an isolated case and has happened several times not only in Alaska but also in Northern Europe to.

So just look at this with an open mind, is all I ask…


Fast Eagle
 
Thank you for sharing your unique perspective, Fast Eagle.

I especially like the line about there being "three" sides to every story. :)
 
Fast Eagle, With all due respect Sir! The Worldnet Daily can sometimes mix things up a bit BUT! If the report is near true, this is a complete clusterfu..!! I try to understand the current economics of our military and the problems associated with having more hanger queens than operational aircraft but if this tale is near true it is unthinkable. We lost the Cole to a skiff.
Sorry to be so bitter about this but there was a time... USN noncom 1970-1974 VP30 and VF31. Yes, I was the guy with the beard and the hair that was too long fixing the autopilots etc. and riding observer in the P3.

Yes, You can run a Russian submarine away from the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay with a practice depth charge.
 
As usual, the TFL team comes through ...

Fast Eagle et al, any chance some of you have friends / contacts on the Kitty Hawk who could confirm this or not? Fast Eagle, I hear what you're saying, but if that Captain was quoted correctly (which, of course, is another question), he sounds like he's simply giving CYA answers. The finance argument certainly could be significant, however.

So, there are at least 2 critical questions ... 1. Did this incident happen substantially as reported? ... and 2. If so, what was the cause for such an event?

Regards from AZ
 
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