Run Away!

Even in war, killing isn't easy, but beats the alternative for sure.
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That is exacly what I told him.

Good no great news, he and his wife are expecting a child due in Oct. So now I can tell him if he hadnt come home that baby would never have been concived.

Glenn sure can rain on a persons parade.... :( how could he have known the guy would go and do that?

Do we gun down all those we feel would go and do harm to another? We may all be shot if that is the case......
 
Given the general tone, not to mention topic, of this forum...its likely that most of us hold much higher standards on our own personal safety than most. I think if EVERYONE was as worried and vigilant about their own safety we would only see a fraction of the violent crime that we do today. Ya know... when you walk into a ma&pa corner store in Texas you are like 95% sure they have AT LEAST a loaded pistol under the counter. That's standard practice there. In NJ, that may be case 1% of the time
 
I have to start off by saying that I can only hope that I would have handled the situation with such a level head as you displayed. You got out of the situation with no one getting hurt. That in itself is a WIN.

That being said, if it had been me, I probably would have pulled, if only to make it clear to the assailant that I was armed and prepared to defend myself. Odds are that would have made the assailant run away. In that case, I would not pursue, but would call 911 with a description of a dangerous individual. In this case, drawing would have been justified. (I don't know about other states, but in NC pointing a weapon at a person counts as use of force, but in this case it is legally justified, as the assailant led you to believe he had a weapon.)

I would wait for the police, give my statement and description, and feel that I had done my civic duty to do all I could to prevent this individual from harming others.
 
Manco
I'd say that a guy who is trying to rob me reaching for his pocket in a threatening manner must be treated as a serious threat, and my response would be pointing a gun at him, ready to shoot (and evade any incoming fire) in an instant if he continues to escalate the situation.
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I don't know that a jury of your peers would see it the same way.

This, could possibly escalate a bad situation to a worse situation. This is very "gray" area stuff, so right now I don't know if there is a right answer.

But to me, a person should not pull their gun, unless they feel their life is in grave danger, and if you think your life is in grave danger, why would you not shoot?

" My client was simply going to show the defendant a picture of his homeless daughter..... " He could go on to say, "After seeing the gun, my client reacted in self defense (blah, blah, blah) & got himself shot."

As it was said earlier, I'm not a cop - I'm not an armed vigilante. If my gun comes out, the decision to shoot has already been made.
 
I'm happy for you that it turned out well...

... and happy that you didn't shoot him when he failed to produce a weapon.

However, I'm of the school that says it's safest to believe the threat. I'd have drawn, and told him to very slowly and carefully bring his hands into sight, while I backed around to the far side of my engine block.

I would not have turned my back on him, or left myself vulnerable as I tried to enter a vehicle, in case he really did have a weapon of any kind.

I'm not overly worried about a brandishing charge if a guy tries to rob me.

Note: I am not of the "You must shoot if you draw!" school as I think that is a bunch of BS. But I am of the "forgive from a position of strength" school.

Note2: I am not opposed to retreating, when it is tactically sound. I am just very leery of turning my back on somebody who claims to have a weapon, and ill intent, unless I am dead sure I can make it to cover. (I'm not that fast a runner, and I'm a bit on the long-torso'd side for ducking quickly into a vehicle door - as a scar or two on my scalp would attest.)
 
I'm certainly in the "if you draw, you had better expect to have to shoot and not hesitate of forced to" crowd. No reason to shoot a guy cause he asks you for money and puts his hands in his pocket, but there is equally no reason why you should not think that is an aggressive act and respond accordingly. Retreating is always a great option, and is probably the best bet unless the BG has the means and intent to immediately take lethal action against you.
 
Agree with thunderkyss, if the gun comes out, it goes boom.

No sense standing there holding a gun on an unarmed man, chances are I get shot by someone mistaking me for the perp.

Its happened.
 
Good luck with that legal defense....

... as I'm pretty sure no state has a "it's always ok to fire the gun once drawn" clause.

If the BG surrenders, but you shoot because you drew, you are (and most likely should be) completely screwed.
 
FWIW, I agree with most of the thread. B. Lahey chose well and acted well throughout. Having a gun, and having justification for shooting, doesn't always mean that you should shoot. If you have an option that doesn't significantly risk your life or somebody else's, I'd take it. And Lahey did. Good job. ;)
 
Should my life be under imminent deadly threat I shoot to stop the threat. The BG had better surrender real fast, because my gun is out and fired in 4 tenths of a second.

In the incident outlined, the robber did not present a weapon or rush the GG.

Why would I shoot an unarmed man 15 to 21 feet away from me? Because he says he has a weapon? Gotta do more than that. I would order him to stop and kiss the pavement, then call in the cavalry, and you wanna know I wouldn't take my eyes off the BG excepting glances to my six.
 
Live to fight another day. You chose wisely. I would have done the same.

My feeling is that, while my hand would have gone immediately to my gun, in preparation, I would have done everything to dissuade this individual. The gun is there only as the absolute last resort.
 
Seaman:

if the gun comes out, it goes boom.
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I would order him to stop and kiss the pavement
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You would give him such orders without drawing? Would you expect compliance? And if he did not comply would you then feel justified to draw and shoot? And if so, can you elucidate how you feel your life would be more at risk at that point than a moment before?

I'm not sure I understand what you are recommending or how it relates to current law.

OP did fine, with the sole exception that if he turned his back on a potential assailant, he took a risk he perhaps shouldn't have.
 
To the original poster,

Your actions prove that you carry a gun as a last resort. As any of us should.

You did well, and I am glad you emerged unscathed.
 
I can't fault you in the least. Retreat, when possible, is always preferable to resorting to our weapons. Plus, if the worst-case scenario does happen and you end up having to resort to deadly force, being able to show that you did all you could to avoid it is always a good thing. Good show.
 
Yo Tailgator:

Have run following protocol by three different south-east Michigan PDs and they are fine with it. Also reviewed it (during a training session) with a retired Detroit police officer, of 2 decades service, now instructor, who lectures on CCW related legal issues.

Please note that Michigan has open carry, concealed carry, and a brandishing law.

My self defence protocol is as follows:

If I am approached by a suspect BG who looks menacing/threatening I do NOT draw my weapon until it is 100% certain that there is an imminent deadly threat. For example - the suspect rushes at me with a knife drawn, or threatens me and draws a gun.

And if I don't see a weapon, but strongly suspect trouble, I order the BG to stop and back off.

My gun would NOT be presented while ordering the suspect.

If the suspect is innocent he can simply stop and withdraw.

If the suspect has verbally threatened me and stated he is armed (but no weapon presented or seen by me) and intends robbing me, he would have the choice of complying with my stop and drop order, or fleeing, or attacking.

I would only draw my gun if attacked. And yes, if I draw my gun it goes boom.

If the preceeding is not clear, please query further.
 
Thanks for the clarification, Seaman. I notice two things:

(1) The protocol that you proposed to the instructors and LEOs lacked the "kiss the pavement" line. I would not expect compliance to that line. I am not clear on when you go from "stop and withdraw" to "stop and drop." Telling someone firmly to back off is tried and true. Ordering someone to the ground, with no badge and no weapon, maybe not so much.

(2) I am not on board with the idea that a drawn gun has to be fired. You yourself indicated that when an assailant sees you are armed he might surrender or flee (if you can forgive the paraphrase). Shooting a surrendering or fleeing assailant will, in many jurisdictions, be a pretty big problem. There are claims that an extraordinarily large number of defensive uses of a firearm are successful without a shot being fired. (My foggy memory says 95%?) We should be prepared to fire, but we should also be prepared to spare ourselves the emotional, legal, and financial hardship of firing unnecessarily.
 
Congratulations. The good news is you're not going through the emotionally draining "are they going to charge me" / "should I cover my A**" / get a lawyer at $$$, etc.

And, it's very very unlikely you're going to end up the victim in a civil suit.

Congratulations, YOU WON!
 
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