Ruling: Quick Word from Phoenix re Maddi-Griffin Case
- Thread starter JimDiver
- Start date
There were approximately 30 of us good guys in the spectator section of the courtroom compared with three feds.
Many things were learned. The judge kept asking the US Attorney about the regulation of interstate commerce. The US Attorney refused to answer and instead, in Clintonesque fashion, answered another question and added that the nexus of interstate commerce was not needed (the rifle kit was made in Arizona and mailed to a BATF agent in Arizona). The feds carried in two small, long boxes as well as a large rifle case. The boxes were wrapped in US Postal Service tape. We didn't get to peek inside.
The issue was "readily convertable" with eight hours in a government machine shop with expert gunsmiths being the standard. Of course, they could make a gun from scratch in that amount of time. And I could make a servicable shotgun out of threaded steel pipe.
The defense suggested that in fact there was no such standard. Some cases had things like a starter pistol converted in 30 minutes or a de-firing-pinned revolver or shotgun in ten minutes. The judge asked if there were any cases where something was considered "not readily converted." There were none. Essentially, readily convertable means whatever fits the government case at the time. In this case the government is assured in its ability to do something with anything in eight hours. If they find that it one day takes 16 hours I am very sure the court will see to it that it becomes the law of the land.
Despite all of this, the court recognized,as did both the prosecution and the defense that "readily converatable" (and another term I can't recall) is nowhere defined in statute, only BATF regs.
As the BATF and US Atty-oids were setting up their desk, I was busy setting up my raffle tickets.
www.paypal.com use hiker_biker@hotmail.com
Of course, it was my first chance to meet Bob Stewart. So that is what a convicted felon looks like? My grandfather.
Bob was upbeat. He thinks he can win this. We will certainly help him out.
How does this ruling affect the raffle? It is still going. Since the raffle is ongoing with the schedule of the trial (Early September) we can still have the kit, but the receiver will have to go through an FFL.
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Many things were learned. The judge kept asking the US Attorney about the regulation of interstate commerce. The US Attorney refused to answer and instead, in Clintonesque fashion, answered another question and added that the nexus of interstate commerce was not needed (the rifle kit was made in Arizona and mailed to a BATF agent in Arizona). The feds carried in two small, long boxes as well as a large rifle case. The boxes were wrapped in US Postal Service tape. We didn't get to peek inside.
The issue was "readily convertable" with eight hours in a government machine shop with expert gunsmiths being the standard. Of course, they could make a gun from scratch in that amount of time. And I could make a servicable shotgun out of threaded steel pipe.
The defense suggested that in fact there was no such standard. Some cases had things like a starter pistol converted in 30 minutes or a de-firing-pinned revolver or shotgun in ten minutes. The judge asked if there were any cases where something was considered "not readily converted." There were none. Essentially, readily convertable means whatever fits the government case at the time. In this case the government is assured in its ability to do something with anything in eight hours. If they find that it one day takes 16 hours I am very sure the court will see to it that it becomes the law of the land.
Despite all of this, the court recognized,as did both the prosecution and the defense that "readily converatable" (and another term I can't recall) is nowhere defined in statute, only BATF regs.
As the BATF and US Atty-oids were setting up their desk, I was busy setting up my raffle tickets.
www.paypal.com use hiker_biker@hotmail.com
Of course, it was my first chance to meet Bob Stewart. So that is what a convicted felon looks like? My grandfather.
Bob was upbeat. He thinks he can win this. We will certainly help him out.
How does this ruling affect the raffle? It is still going. Since the raffle is ongoing with the schedule of the trial (Early September) we can still have the kit, but the receiver will have to go through an FFL.
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Brett Bellmore
New member
Ok, pretty much as I expected. Did the issue of the BATF violating the judge's order that Stewart could resume business ever come up?
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Sic semper tyrannis!
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Sic semper tyrannis!
Brett Bellmore
New member
I think this should remind us what a rare gem Judge Cummings is; The enemy OWNS the legal system, and in most courts it doesn't matter how good your case is; If you're challenging gun control, you WILL lose.
8 hours, huh? I'm only a moderately experienced machinist, and I'm quite confident that, given prints, I could convert a raw billet of steel into a functioning gun in less than 8 hours; Heck, I could probably wing it, if you loaned me one of the cartridges it was supposed to fire. By that standard, EVERYTHING is readilly convertable into a firearm!
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Sic semper tyrannis!
8 hours, huh? I'm only a moderately experienced machinist, and I'm quite confident that, given prints, I could convert a raw billet of steel into a functioning gun in less than 8 hours; Heck, I could probably wing it, if you loaned me one of the cartridges it was supposed to fire. By that standard, EVERYTHING is readilly convertable into a firearm!
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Sic semper tyrannis!
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
What is the level of the court where this ruling was found? State? Federal?
Does this immediately affect all other companies that sell "kit" guns, nationwide?
Need a legal-eagle's perspective on this...
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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
Does this immediately affect all other companies that sell "kit" guns, nationwide?
Need a legal-eagle's perspective on this...
------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
Jeff Thomas
New member
This was in the Federal District Court, Arizona District.
RickD, I was disappointed that Bob Stewart's attorney had not read the Smith case (out of the 8th Circuit). Your thoughts?
And, if anyone has access to Lexis, perhaps someone would be kind enough to post this Smith case ... ?
Regards from AZ
RickD, I was disappointed that Bob Stewart's attorney had not read the Smith case (out of the 8th Circuit). Your thoughts?
And, if anyone has access to Lexis, perhaps someone would be kind enough to post this Smith case ... ?
Regards from AZ
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Isn't the issue that he was a convicted felon and not the nature of the kit?
Or did I miss something?
Or did I miss something?
First the feds have to prove that what he was selling was in fact legally a firearm.
Then they have to prove that his state-granted "relief from felony status" doesn't count.
Then they have to prove that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply.
THEN they nail him to the wall for felon-in-posession.
Then they have to prove that his state-granted "relief from felony status" doesn't count.
Then they have to prove that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply.
THEN they nail him to the wall for felon-in-posession.
Brett Bellmore
New member
'Fraid that's not QUITE true; Once they establish that the kits count as firearms, he's been shipping "firearms" out of state to non FFL's, without Brady checks, et cettera, so on and so forth... Similarly, his customers, all 3000 or so of them, are in deep doo-doo. It MIGHT be advisable for them to ante up for the defense fund, pronto!
Nice thing from the Gestapo's perspective, of course, is that they've got his customer list, and he DOESN'T. So he can't warn any of them, the defense fund can't contact them. First thing many of them may know of this is when their doors get kicked down!
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Sic semper tyrannis!
[This message has been edited by Brett Bellmore (edited July 13, 2000).]
Nice thing from the Gestapo's perspective, of course, is that they've got his customer list, and he DOESN'T. So he can't warn any of them, the defense fund can't contact them. First thing many of them may know of this is when their doors get kicked down!
------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
[This message has been edited by Brett Bellmore (edited July 13, 2000).]
>RickD, I was disappointed that Bob Stewart's attorney had not read the Smith case (out of the 8th Circuit). Your thoughts?<
Yeah, ya'd think he woulda had not only read it but had a counter argument such as the ones offered above.
Remember, the attorney representing him today was a government attorney. The next time he walks into court he will be represented by Arizona Pitbull, Marc Victor who does his homework and knows how to debate.
To my surprise before this hearing started, a few of those in attendance were muttering words like "trial, trial, trial." They want to challenge this. And so does Stewart.
Another thing I got clear on today was Mr. Stewart's felonly status. Utah did not reinstate his rights, Stewart was in the process of getting them restored based on a few court cases which over-turned convictions and guilty pleas based on government entrapment. I mean, heck, a government informer, whom Bob knows goes to Bob who is an FFL and manufacturer and says, "Fix this rifle." Later the government agents come and tell him he is in possession of a bad gun.
Is this what we are paying these guys to do? Is this what Project Exile and Clinton's "500 new BATF agents" is going to be used for?
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Yeah, ya'd think he woulda had not only read it but had a counter argument such as the ones offered above.
Remember, the attorney representing him today was a government attorney. The next time he walks into court he will be represented by Arizona Pitbull, Marc Victor who does his homework and knows how to debate.
To my surprise before this hearing started, a few of those in attendance were muttering words like "trial, trial, trial." They want to challenge this. And so does Stewart.
Another thing I got clear on today was Mr. Stewart's felonly status. Utah did not reinstate his rights, Stewart was in the process of getting them restored based on a few court cases which over-turned convictions and guilty pleas based on government entrapment. I mean, heck, a government informer, whom Bob knows goes to Bob who is an FFL and manufacturer and says, "Fix this rifle." Later the government agents come and tell him he is in possession of a bad gun.
Is this what we are paying these guys to do? Is this what Project Exile and Clinton's "500 new BATF agents" is going to be used for?
Rick
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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
If the kits are guns, what about the rags like
Shotgun News that advertised them?
Are they in trouble? They should kick up some money.
Shotgun News that advertised them?
Are they in trouble? They should kick up some money.
I don't own one, and I probably never will. I will contribute though. I love it. Finally there is a whole bunch of people in deep doo-doo. The ATF just picked a fight with 3000 people who could apparently afford a 1500 dollar toy, so I would assume that we may see somthing positive out of this case. The NRA doesn't really involve itself in these things unfortunately, but now you have an impetus to get heavily involved. I say we should all send a ten dollar check. That would add up real quick to a level of decent representation for the man.
Brett Bellmore
New member
RickD: He was using the public defender? Why'd you get our hopes up, then? Trying to challenge the government on something like this when your attorney WORKS for the government!
If he thinks the Judge's job was on the line, what does that say about his government lawyer? Whose cushy position is doubtless FAR less secure than a judge's.
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Sic semper tyrannis!
If he thinks the Judge's job was on the line, what does that say about his government lawyer? Whose cushy position is doubtless FAR less secure than a judge's.
------------------
Sic semper tyrannis!
"The ATF just picked a fight with 3000 people who could apparently afford a 1500 dollar toy"
Unfortunately the BATF took the Stewart's customer list. Bob and his wife have no way of contacting them to seek donations. The only warning these people may get is a knock on the door by our friends in Nomex.
"He was using the public defender? Why'd you get our hopes up, then?"
The real attorney, criminal defense specialist Marc Victor comes on line now. Victor is a veteran of this kind of work. He knew that this was likely to go to trial from the beginning. Now it's time for the grizzled old barrister to dust off his law library card and get down to business.
The government attorney was free. Victor is not. Ya get what ya pay for.
Rick
PS, I'll try to get the e-mail and fax number of the preciding judge so we can e-mail her our arguments.
Unfortunately the BATF took the Stewart's customer list. Bob and his wife have no way of contacting them to seek donations. The only warning these people may get is a knock on the door by our friends in Nomex.
"He was using the public defender? Why'd you get our hopes up, then?"
The real attorney, criminal defense specialist Marc Victor comes on line now. Victor is a veteran of this kind of work. He knew that this was likely to go to trial from the beginning. Now it's time for the grizzled old barrister to dust off his law library card and get down to business.
The government attorney was free. Victor is not. Ya get what ya pay for.
Rick
PS, I'll try to get the e-mail and fax number of the preciding judge so we can e-mail her our arguments.
Brett Bellmore
New member
RickD: Yup, you get what you pay for, and the GOVERNMENT paid for the first lawyer, and accordingly got him.
Even assuming that a trial was inevitable, the least this cost was a substantial delay in getting hold of a copy of the customer list, your most likely source of defense funds, and the people most likely to be assaulted by the BATF in the next week or so.
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Sic semper tyrannis!
Even assuming that a trial was inevitable, the least this cost was a substantial delay in getting hold of a copy of the customer list, your most likely source of defense funds, and the people most likely to be assaulted by the BATF in the next week or so.
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Sic semper tyrannis!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RickD:
"He was using the public defender? Why'd you get our hopes up, then?"
The real attorney, criminal defense specialist Marc Victor comes on line now. Victor is a veteran of this kind of work. He knew that this was likely to go to trial from the beginning. Now it's time for the grizzled old barrister to dust off his law library card and get down to business.
The government attorney was free. Victor is not. Ya get what ya pay for.
[/quote]
Marc Victor? I thought that name was familiar. He put together a speaking engagement for Vin Suprynowicz a while back in Phoenix. Seemed like a nice guy.
[This message has been edited by EricM (edited July 14, 2000).]
"He was using the public defender? Why'd you get our hopes up, then?"
The real attorney, criminal defense specialist Marc Victor comes on line now. Victor is a veteran of this kind of work. He knew that this was likely to go to trial from the beginning. Now it's time for the grizzled old barrister to dust off his law library card and get down to business.
The government attorney was free. Victor is not. Ya get what ya pay for.
[/quote]
Marc Victor? I thought that name was familiar. He put together a speaking engagement for Vin Suprynowicz a while back in Phoenix. Seemed like a nice guy.
[This message has been edited by EricM (edited July 14, 2000).]