RULE II of Firearm Safety

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scottaschultz

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First of all, I am not anti-gun in any way. I have quite a few (by some standards) ranging from .22 rifles, pistols and revolvers to 10ga shotguns.

To my point, The #2 Rule of Firearm Safety is "NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY"

I see a lot of posts here and on other forums from well-intentioned folks who seem to have lost sight of this basic concept, especially when it comes to personal defense. I can't help but believe that some of these people really do not understand the concept that what they are carrying is a lethal weapon. Firearms were designed to do only one thing; kill. Guns were not meant to merely scare people or to just wound or subdue an aggressor. Discharging a firearm of any caliber can, and often does, result in killing another living creature.

Yes, many of us, me included, spend lots of time destroying targets at the range. For me, it is a great source of stress relief and I take pride in constantly trying to improve my accuracy. But I also hunt; small game, large game and waterfowl. When I point my 30-30 at a deer, it is not my intention to cripple it. When I point my 12ga at a turkey, I do not want to wound it. When I point my 10ga at a goose, I don't want to scare it out of the sky.

I am very much OK with saving money on trials for "BG's", but all I ask is that all of you new or prospective CCW holders, is that you are prepared to follow through with your actions once you pull your weapon and that means killing someone. No, that does not mean you must pull the trigger if you pull your weapon, but please remember that your actions could result in the death of a human being and once that happens, your life will change... forever!

Scott
 
Firearms were designed to do only one thing; kill.
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The initial concept may have been invented to kill. Modern firearms are designed for several reasons that have nothing to do with killing.
As a wise man once said "If my guns are designed to kill then they're all defective."


Guns were not meant to merely scare people or to just wound or subdue an aggressor.
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Yet, they are legally and wisely used to scare people every day.


...is that you are prepared to follow through with your actions once you pull your weapon and that means killing someone.
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No, it doesn't. It could mean scaring them or shooting them and they surrender and not die OR killing them. It doesn't MEAN killing, it MEANS defending.


No, that does not mean you must pull the trigger if you pull your weapon, but please remember that your actions could result in the death of a human being and once that happens, your life will change... forever!
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Agreed.
 
OK, I agree that not all guns were designed to kill. I have friends who shoot these hyper-accurate .22 rifles and these guys are amazing. Nonetheless, a Suhl 150 is a lethal weapon and is quite capable of killing.

The point I am trying to make is what some call the "Speedo Principle" and that is, "Just because a Speedo comes in your size does not mean you have to wear one!"

Of course the 2nd Amendment applies to everyone, but not everyone should own a firearm. Of course guns are pulled all the time and never fired and everyone goes home, or to jail, but at least they are alive.

As crazy as it sounds, I would rather face an aggressor in a proverbial dark alley than most people with a CCW permit. At least with the aggressor, I know what his intentions are, but with a guy who just bought a .45 at his local sporting goods store and took an 8 hour CCW class, how can I ever know that he will be making a good decision when it comes to discharging his weapon. LEO's train for this all the time and sometimes, rarely, they still get it wrong.

Yes, it is his right to own a gun and carry it, but sometimes it scares the living daylights out of me when I think about being someplace where this guy might be in a "situation".

Scott
 
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As crazy as it sounds, I would rather face an aggressor in a proverbial dark alley than most people with a CCW permit.
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If you were so worried about people with CCW permits making the wrong decisions, then why dont we hear about all these wrong decisions? Because they dont happen. Every group of people have the bad apples, but CCW holders are proven law abiding, responsible people.
I get this response from all my anti-gun friends, but the fact is there is no proof you can bring to the table that CCW holders are irresponsible with their weapons, just fear and doubt.

That aside, you cannot legislate responsibility... Are you advocating the government come in and tell you if you are or are not responsible enough to carry a weapon?

And using a forum as a measure of peoples level of responsibility is not smart. People act totally different through the internet than they do in real life. Not to mention it is hard to properly convey your meaning across a medium such as this.
 
I'm not really sure what your point was with this post. That we should treat defense shooting like hunting? Or just that more people with a CCW should take decent training and practice regularly? People make good and bad decisions every day, just look at the automotive accident reports. Get over it.

As a civilian, our only legal use of a firearm is to stop a threat of bodily harm or death. We're going to have to prove that we used the minimum amount of force necessary.

You might very well draw your pistol, fully prepared to fire, and the BG runs away. At that point, you really can't shoot him. Until that moment, though, my muzzle WAS covering something I was willing to destroy: the threat to my life.

All that said, I'll add:
  • In a self-defense situation, you are shooting to stop, not expressly to kill. If you shoot him once, he drops to the ground crying and rocking in a fetal position, you can't shoot him again.
  • Don't draw a gun unless you are willing to use it
  • There are no "warning shots"
  • Hunting is very different from self-defense use for firearms. You are using the tool (your firearm) for a very different purpose: to definitely kill and eat, not just stop a threat
  • If you're not willing to use a gun to stop a threat, don't carry one.
  • If you don't trust this person enough to be around him when he's armed, then either get him to think about it more or stop hanging around with him.
 
how can I ever know that he will be making a good decision when it comes to discharging his weapon.
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I gotta ask - How do WE know YOU will make a good decision in the same circumstance?
 
As crazy as it sounds, I would rather face an aggressor in a proverbial dark alley than most people with a CCW permit. At least with the aggressor, I know what his intentions are, but with a guy who just bought a .45 at his local sporting goods store and took an 8 hour CCW class, how can I ever know that he will be making a good decision when it comes to discharging his weapon.
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Well, you can be pretty sure that the CCW holders intentions are FRIENDLY at least. Since the crime rate for CC holders is like .5% or some such thing, I don't think they (WE) are the problem. I keep reading and re-reading that whole second amendment thing, I must be missing the part about taking classes. So many people are sure, it MUST be there.

How about this one? I took an 8 hour class that involved firing 10 rounds and included NO instruction on defensive shooting. I bought my gun, GULP, sight unseen, and having never fired that particular caliber, from an on-line retailer who didn't verify my experience....

How good will MY decisions be?
 
"As crazy as it sounds, I would rather face an aggressor in a proverbial dark alley than most people with a CCW permit. At least with the aggressor, I know what his intentions are, but with a guy who just bought a .45 at his local sporting goods store and took an 8 hour CCW class, how can I ever know that he will be making a good decision when it comes to discharging his weapon."

Huh?? An aggressor is out to harm you for no reason! A CCW has no reason to harm you!! Having a CCW makes a person a loose cannon?? A CCW has proven to be law abiding. A BG has proven to be NOT law abiding.
By your logic, you'd rather walk through an inner city ghetto at night than through many suburban Wal-Marts!
Thing is, since it's Concealed Carry, you never know who is carrying! There are more people carrying in most areas than BG's in "safe" areas. Are you stating that you are afraid to be in traditionally "safe" areas?
Since BG's in ghettos aren't allowed to CCW, does that make it safer for you?

I don't understand your premise/logic/reasoning at all.
 
Discharging a firearm of any caliber can, and often does, result in killing another living creature.......
Scott
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but please remember that your actions could result in the death of a human being and once that happens, your life will change... forever!
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I think you need to separate the SD use of a firearm from the recreational aspect.

Are you really so self righteous that you need lecture the rest of us on the consequences of using deadly force because you know the consequences and we don't? Apparently.

Yes, I know that if I shot the person who was trying to murder me or the people I love most in the whole world, that such action could result in the death of that person. But thank you, anyway.

The nature of your post casts doubts on your own willingness to do what it takes to defend your life or others should the time come.
 
Firearms were designed to do only one thing; kill.
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OK, I agree that not all guns were designed to kill.
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In looking at the designs of several firearms, I cannot find any that indicate killing as part of the design. While varied, the basic design element of firearms is the launching of a projectile(s) down range in some sort of controlled manner via propulsion from combustion-based expanding gasses. It is the projectile that may kill, not the gun. Many guns have operational differences from one another, but the singular underlying function remains consistent.

It is an application parameter, not a design parameter, if the firearm is used to launch a projectile for the purpose of killing. Notice that the function of the gun does not change with application. Whether shooting in the air, at the ground, at a paper target, as a warning shot, or at living creature, the way in which a given gun functions does not change.

Design and application are not one in the same.

No, that does not mean you must pull the trigger if you pull your weapon, but please remember that your actions could result in the death of a human being and once that happens, your life will change...
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And you should please remember that in a life threatening situation that if you do not pull the trigger, your life may cease to change ever again except in the transition from life to death. With that stated, if you are involved in a life or death situation, even if you don't pull the trigger and you survive, your life will have also been changed forever.
 
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My advice to you: Stay away from Alaska and Vermont.

Niether of those states require any type of permit to carry a concealed weapon. That means that anyone who may legally own a firearm may carry it.

You'd crap your pants if you had to spend a day in Kodiak, Seward, Homer, Kenai, Anchorage, or any other town up here... Literally ANY person you meet could be carrying a firearm, and they probably are. And they don't have that measly 8-hour course you so poorly spoke of...

Alaska and Vermont both have extremely low crime rates... And by low, I mean LOW! So it would seem that the presence of firearms really do prevent crimes... Huh, I guess ol' George Washington really did know a thing or two...
 
Scott, I spent a long while reading, then re-reading your post. I don't really find any major point of contention with the possible exception being your claim that some TFL members have lost sight of the fact that guns are lethal weapons (last time I checked, that's why we're all here). I suppose it could be a subjective observation.

But if the final line of your post was your thesis, I must point out that, at least for me, the whole reason I acquired my CHL was that - if needed to protect my life or that of my loved ones - I was perfectly fine with killing somebody. At this point, as a proud CHL carrier, I don't need to realize that my "actions could result in the death of a human being." That was all considered prior to getting the CHL (if you want to nitpick, it was before I ever bought a gun, period).

In other words, before I acquired my CHL, I asked myself, "What am I willing to do protect myself and my family?" One of the answer choices is: Carry a firearm that will effectively stop a threat. Obviously, I realize that stopping the threat now may stop it permanently (AKA killing). If I'm alive to agonize over the fact that I have actually ended someone's life in a self-defense situation, I have succeeded.
 
I must point out that, at least for me, the whole reason I acquired my CHL was that - if needed to protect my life or that of my loved ones - I was perfectly fine with killing somebody.
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I'm going to quote myself to expand on this a little. No, I am not a 'cowboy' or a vigilante. I hope that I never, ever have to draw my weapon in anger. But people are killed every day in this country. I believe I have a right to avoid being one of them, and I appreciate Texas for honoring my right to self-defense.

No, I am truly scared of killing an innocent. I'm not kidding, and y'all can laugh all you want, but I have had nightmares that I killed someone innocent (never with a gun though). It was one of those dreams where it seems so real and when I woke I literally THANKED THE LORD OUT LOUD that it hadn't really happened.

But with regard to killing someone who means me serious harm or is trying to kill me? Not a problem.
 
But with regard to killing someone who means me serious harm or is trying to kill me? Not a problem.
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No need to explain yourself. The ability to take a human life is probably the most critical mental aspect to carrying a concealed weapon. Right there with discipline and responsibility...

Design and application are not one in the same.
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Talk about hitting the nail on the head.
The way I look at it, guns are not designed to kill. Bullets are designed to kill...
When I load my USPc up with some wadcutter FMJs for the range, its no more a killing machine than your sports car or SUV. Can it kill, of course. But so can you kid driving your car home from some party.
On the other hand if I put in my Hornady TAP JHPs, its express intent from that point on is to take someones life. Those rounds have been designed to expand and create the most internal damage as possible.
The firearm itself is, to steal someones sig, is just 'a single piston, single stroke internal combustion engine with a free floating piston.'
Kills me every time ;) (what a crappy pun)
 
It is possible to pull a gun on someone with the intention to shoot and within a split second the situation changes, such as the threat to life and limb immediately retreats, runs away. I have no problem with that. It happens all the time in police work.

However, to pull a gun on someone just to threaten them is a very bad idea, and possibly a criminal act.

I modified rule #2 for my purposes as:
"Never point a gun at anything you are not willing, and justified legally to destroy."
 
It is the projectile that may kill, not the gun.
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So if I just take a bullet and throw it at you, you would die?? A bullet is no good until or unless it is fired from a gun.

And yes, I do believe there are people who do not search their souls and ask themselves if they could kill another human being, whatever the circumstances.

That said, I will just stick to hunting. At least there I know what I am dealing with.

Good night.
 
I once had an "interview" where I was asked how I felt about taking a human life. I was just barely 18 and the thought had not seriously crossed my mind before that point. But I made up my mind that instant on a simple basis.

If it's a matter of me or them, I'd rather it be them every single time.

Would I have any regrets? No. If someone is out to take my life and It's up to me to save my own by taking theirs, it's a non-issue. The same thing is going through their mind and they're going to try their utmost to put you in the ground. It's your duty to yourself and your future to stop that from happening.

I have never taken a life but I think on simple terms. I don't care that some might say that I'm only saying this because I've never experienced it. There's no reason to complicate anything. Would you rather live or die? Given a choice, I'll take "live" every time, by any means necessary.

Self preservation is not something you need to go soul-searching for. That's it, plain and simple. The contemplative ones about this subject are most likely to end up as a corpse in a body bag.
 
scottaschultz said,
So if I just take a bullet and throw it at you, you would die?? A bullet is no good until or unless it is fired from a gun.
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Thank you for now seeing the light and helping explain the design function of a gun. I don't think you intended to do it, but you did. Basically, you are saying that the function of the gun is to bring the bullet up to speed and to control it such that it will hit a target. There is nothing in your statement to suggest that the gun kills.

As I said above, I have yet to see any gun designs that have in them a design parameter of killing. Killing is but one application for which a gun may be used, but isn't a design element. Design and application and Design and intent of use are not one in the same.
 
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