"Ruger only" loads

I would argue there is such a thing as ruger only in 357 Magnum.
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That's also an excellent picture of the Ruger off set bolt stop.

In addition to the extra metal the cylinder has, it's clear to see the Smith bolt stop cut outs are directly above the chambers.
That's the real weak spot of the Smith (and also the Colt I believe).
 
I now have several of these big Redhawks and have been loading them up for real power with 357 mag loads that would make Phil Sharpe proud. It is a lot of fun to cut loose real full power 357 Mag loads where I am tossing a 158 at 1550 FPS like they did back in the 1930's to 1960's. Not like the 1200 fps of today, but full power. You know Ruger only power.
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WARNING for anybody reading this.

RISK ONE.

There is a problem when you push small case capacities to wild-child pressures. You get to a point where tiny increases in powder cause big jumps in pressure...and it's hard to feel exactly where the "edge" is where this is going to happen.

Put another way, the pressure doesn't increase steadily, instead it increases logarithmically. The resulting chart will look like the FIRST of these charts:

embim7.png


...where pressure goes up much faster as you add powder, versus the "smooth increase" you'd expect (second chart).

If Peter were to convert that same 357 gun to, say, 45LC, he could deliver more energy on target for less pressure and less risk.

Now, as long as he explores this "edge" very, very carefully he'll be OK. But it IS possible to break a Redhawk 357.

SECOND PROBLEM

At some point his brass is going to come unglued. That will be "exciting" when it does. And again, due to the way pressure can "spike" in edgy loads, you might add half a grain of powder to a recipe and jump from 55,000PSI (which that gun and brass can probably cope with!) to 80,000+ or somedangthing and life gets very interesting very quickly :).
 
Actually, there was a Ruger made for "full power" 357 loads. It was the Blackhawk in 357 Maximum. Had one of these and it would really wake up the guy next to me at the indoor range. Crono'd 110 gn. JHP at over 2000 FPS form a 7 1/2" barrel with max book load of 4227. Just made a few as I know it isn't good for the top strap. Perfect gun for 180 gn bullets.
 
The 357Max has more case capacity which tends to alleviate the problem whereby stuffing "just a bit more" powder in leads to a pressure spike. It will happen of course but it will take longer.

Gary Reeder came up with a better idea: take a normal-size Blackhawk chambered in 357Mag with a second cylinder in 9mmPara and ream the 9mm cylinder to a wildcat he came up with based on a 41Magnum case necked down to 357. This "356GNR" will perform like a 357Max but in a standard-length gun - he got the extra case capacity needed by going wider instead of longer. You need to use a full-sized Ruger SA frame for this, not a "mid-frame" like the New Vaquero.

There was a previous effort involving a 44Mag shell necked down to 357 at the Bain and Davis gunshop but the neck needed to be steep enough that it caused setback issues....fired cases want to "ram backwards" and tie up the revolver's ability to spin the cylinder (whoops) which is also why the 357Sig is a no-go in wheelguns. Reeder's setup works better because the neck transition is gentler and the "backwards pressure" on the fired shells isn't so extreme.

Now, it occurs to me that one of Peter's Redhawk 357s would make a splendid conversion to 356GNR. He would have to send the cylinder in to Gary, and he'd be buying both the cylinder conversion service plus a set of dies and reloading data for the 356GNR. Starline makes 356GNR brass, or he could convert 41Mag brass himself. The barrel and frame wouldn't need to change.

---

Sidenote: my "Maurice" FrankenRuger that started out as a 357Mag NewVaq and is now a 9mmPara is a very, VERY strong 9mm gun. Possibly among the strongest ever, considering that my cylinder is a chromoly Hamilton Bowen blank. It may be as strong as a full-size Ruger Blackhawk with a factory 9mm second cylinder. I'll have to resist the temptation to handload my 9mm into something crazy :). I'm wondering though if I can take a 100gr double-ended wadcutter like Penn Bullets sells (sized .356) and load it deep enough in 9mm cases that I can get 10 rounds into my foot-long magazines, yet still make 120 power factor (in this case drive 100gr wadcutters at 1,200fps). If I can do that for ICORE or Steel Challenge revolver class I'll be able to get 25 rounds downrange with just one reload - start with 5 in the cylinder and a 10rd mag inserted, swap to another 10rd mag, that's 25. Might let me run even with guys shooting 8-shot DAs. With convensional rounds my extended mags only hold 9rds.
 
Be careful! These "Ruger only" loads don't apply to all Rugers. For example: the 45 Colt New Vaqueros and the Flat top Blackhawk 45 Colts can NOT handle these hot loads.

While you are right about the New Vaqueros not handling heavy +P .45 Colt Loads, the Blackhawk handles them perfectly fine.

According to Buffalo Bore

Quote:
These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are safe in all LARGE FRAME Ruger revolvers.
(includes Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, all pre-2005 Vaquero, Bisley, Redhawk)
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Not true. But you did make my point for me. I didn't say "Blackhawk" I said "Flattop Blackhawk 45 Colt". If you're not careful, you can have an accident. But if I didn't know the difference and read that quote from BB, I would assume it was safe. It isn't. The Flattop isn't the large frame like other Blackhawks.
 
Not true. But you did make my point for me. I didn't say "Blackhawk" I said "Flattop Blackhawk 45 Colt".
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I wasn't aware of the special run of the flattop Blackhawks built on a smaller frame until Jim pointed it out. I actually sent Buffalo Bore a message to let them know.
 
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Great care must be taken when “over charging” a round.
When I was developing my 44 rounds towards my stopping point I was moving up a tenth of a grain at a time and you could not feel the difference but it showed on a chronograph.
One tenth could change the velocity as much a 50 fps.
These were greatly compressed load.
God I'm glad I was young and dumb back then because today I'd never even consider shooting one of those rounds.
 
I will agree the 357 Maximum is fun. When I want more power, I just hop over to my Maxes and blast away.

Back to the Ruger only 357 Magnum rounds. Yes I could get more power with a different gun. That is not the fun of playing and reloading. The fun is figuring out how to do it with what I have. I want to push the Mag to its 1930's power levels and a bit beyond. We are only up in the mid 40,000 psi range to maybe 60,000 psi. As long as I play in the Ruger carefully I am not too worried about it. The goal is a 158 at 1550. Once I get there I will re-evaluate and see how much higher I can work it.

Besides, its a Ruger, I already have a spare (or two) :)
 
griffin,,, those 1930s velocities were made with higher pressures and with LONGER barrels.

IVe seen people claiming their 357 sp101 can get 1300 fps with 158 grain bullets.
 
Griffin,

Yes, "Ruger ONLY!" 357Mag loads "exist". But they're edgy enough that nobody sells them and nobody smart publishes data for them, including the people doing such experiments in this thread.
 
Yes, even I don't talk specifics when one gets really hot. Suffice it to be said that one can (with current manuals) hit the low 1500 fps with an 8 3/8" barrel Pre-27 using a 158 LSWC.

The motivation on my part is can I do it with less pressure and a better burn.

Such is the fun of reloading with Ruger only loads.
 
If there is one thing Ruger has done that is a dis-service to their customers it has been making so many different guns with identical or nearly identical names over the years.

There are different (frame) size Blackhawks. There are New model Blackhawks, there are Flattop Blackhawks. There is the Vaquero, and there is the New Vaquero. And there are probably some I can't think of right now...

The term "Ruger Only" loads began with a very specific application. It referred ONLY to heavier than standard loads in .45 Colt caliber. By the 1970s it had become widely known that the Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt would easily handle loads above the safe limit for the .45 Colt Single Action (and all copies/clones). When Ruger came out with the New Model Blackhawk in .45 Colt it used the large ("44 frame) and was good for the Ruger only loads as well.

This was ALL that Ruger Only referred to. Some loading manuals eventually had sections for Ruger (or Ruger and Contender) .45 Colt loads. There were no other calibers with "Ruger only" loads, only .45 Colt.

The Vaquero also uses the large frame, essentially its a fixed sight new model Blackhawk. The Vaquero is good for "Ruger only" .45 Colt loads.

Ruger eventually dropped the Vaquero, and replaced it with a model named "NEW VAQUERO" (it says exactly that on it). This gun is made with a smaller frame than the new model Blackhawk or the Vaquero. It is essentially the same frame size as the Colt Single Action. It is NOT considered SAFE with RUGER ONLY loads!!!!!

SO you can see how it can get confusing, with the casual way people speak.

Now, you can load up rounds that only certain Rugers can handle, in several calibers, and you can correctly call them Ruger only loads, but most folks still think .45 Colt (and only .45 Colt) when you say "Ruger Only".
 
This was ALL that Ruger Only referred to. Some loading manuals eventually had sections for Ruger (or Ruger and Contender) .45 Colt loads. There were no other calibers with "Ruger only" loads, only .45 Colt.
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I don't recall ever seeing just "Ruger only".
Everything I recall seeing said Ruger and TC.
 
If there is one thing Ruger has done that is a dis-service to their customers it has been making so many different guns with identical or nearly identical names over the years.
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One thing that has been a constant that should stop any blame put on Ruger is they have never OK'd anything other than SAAMI spec ammo in all of their guns.
If you want to push a gun past SAAMI spec you need to do the leg work to find out what's safe in your gun. If you don't it's not Ruger's fault it's yours.
 
Oh I don't blame Ruger for making different guns capable of handling different levels of loads at all.

What I blame Ruger for is making different guns and giving them names that, unless you have it in your hand to look at, you have to ask half a dozen questions to find out specifically which gun someone is talking about!

Ok, half a dozen is more than usual, but you get the point?

"hey, I just got a new Blackhawk!"
"did you?"
"yeah, and its 3 screws on the side of it!"
"then its not a new Blackhawk..."

"hey, I just got a new Vaquero!"
"did you?"
"Yeah, and it fits the same holster as my Colt!"
"then it is a New Vaquero..."

(and those are the easy ones...;))

Also, at the one of the gates of the Happy Hunting Grounds, there is a looong line of sportsmen and shooters, each waiting their turn to slap Bill Ruger (once, only, alternate Tuesdays from 11 to 11:a5 am), for the rear sight windage screw.....
:rolleyes:
 
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