Ruger mark iv won't clean

My being a dad who raised 4 kids and being an RSO that assists wit the Women On Target training at the local range I can tell you that recoil is less important to kids than it is to grown women - not sure about the guys. Most of the women that come to Women On Target don't have any experience with guns. They don't like noise and they really notice recoil. You can't tell them that a 22 RF pistol doesn't have recoil because they will call you a liar after they shoot it. You can tell them the the recoil is lighter than almost all other handguns. They like shooting it but quickly go towards the 9mms. Most don't care for the revolvers even in 22. I haven't asked why, it is just an oddity. They tend to gravitate to the mid sized 9mms not liking the recoil from the small ones and the weight of the full size even though they admit less recoil. Very few women shoot more than a couple of rounds of 40 and 45. The ones that do are the ladies who end up carrying the bigger guns. I've also noticed that if they can put a bullet in the bullseye they automatically like that gun. There are not many women that like the shot guns. It is hard to hit that first clay and the noise and recoil just turn them off. A few of them hit the first clay on the first try and will shoot happily until they get discouraged. Rifles are not a big draw unless they are looking forward to going hunting with their husbands. They start out on 22LR and they all like that. The noise level is down and they find it easier to hit a target farther away. Then we let them try the 223. They get to choose either a Ruger mini14 or an AR. They always go with the mini14 first. It is not "scarey". They tend to be apprehensive about recoil and noise. I explain that the recoil is mostly due to bullet size and the noise comes from the amount of powder burned. Once I tell them that it shoots a 22 bullet but just uses more powder then they understand the recoil is not to be worried about. Once they fire it they have a lot of fun shooting at and hitting all the different targets that we have for them. When the caliber goes above 25 most of them stop having fun. We have the guns for them to try but the three problems with the larger bores is the weight, the blast and the recoil.
Don't get the wrong impression some of these women would shoot anything we had and a few of them really seem to enjoy the power and recoil of bigger guns.

Kids, especially the boys like the big guns. Even if it hurts they like to be able to say, "I shot my dad's 44 magnum!" or "I shot a bullseye at 100 yards with my dad's 300 magnum". I think it gives them "man" points or something. My girls liked shooting the 357 and were accurate with it. My oldest daughter at 10 years old could shoot almost as well as I could at 25 yards. I think my kids just liked spending time with dad and doing what dad was doing. A neighbors boy asked if he could shoot my 357 so with mom's permission I took him to the range. He was in seventh heaven! He wasn't very accurate and it looked like he was going to drop the gun under recoil but he held on and kept shooting. He was around 12 years old and had never fired anything. That Christmas his mom got him a 22 to "target practice" with. He shot every gopher he could find and cleaned out all the pests at the family farm.
 
Hard to argue with your point of view, makarov; it's the same as I've always advocated and is the same regimen that most informed firearm fraternities have recommended over the years when it comes to introducing a beginner to shooting.

But I found Hal's take on the issue interesting and worth thinking about. .38 Special wadcutter ammunition doesn't recoil much from a revolver having some weight and heft (i.e., Smith K-frames) nor does .38 target ammunition have a very loud report. And, "psychologically", it does seem more likely that a beginner might have less interest in husbanding "puny", cheap .22 rounds than he might with centerfire cartridges having more presence in terms of size and cost and a more "robust" shooting experience.
 
38 Special wadcutter ammunition doesn't recoil much from a revolver having some weight and heft
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Nor does it cost that much either...

For less than the price of a decent .22 pistol, a complete Lee starter kit ($299.00) can be purchased to bring the cost of ammunition down to .22 levels.

The really huge point of a larger caliber as a "first gun" also comes with it being far better suited for defense.

.22's are wonderful for training with, if done properly. As I mentioned also (and which most people tend to ignore when they rush to defend the .22),,,,they make a great 2nd or 3rd gun...but,,as a first gun?

Nope, I always steer people towards something more substantial & reloading.
 
to bring the cost of ammunition down to .22 levels.
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And at the rate .22 ammunition is escalating in price, the notion of reloading center-fire cartridges instead of shooting rimfire ammunition in order to be more affordable, is becoming more and more viable, if not practical.
 
.22LR has actually come down considerably in price over the past few months as availability has increased.
 
In response to the 22 and new shooter thing...

I have taught a lot of people to shoot. I always start them with 22 and let them move up in caliber as they feel up to it.

My experience is the opposite. Most of my students have preferred revolvers.

I am starting to suspect that it involves expectations. I am a revolver guy. I prefer them. I expect my students to prefer them. Unsurprisingly, they do. I am probably communicating those expectations subconsciously. If I were a semi-auto guy, it wouldn't be surprising if that's what my students tended to prefer. Just my two cents.

I think that what happens is that the 22's aren't exciting after a while. The student gets bored and wants to try something that makes a bigger bang and a bigger hole in the target. 32's are a great stepping stone to 38 special or 9mm.
 
dgludwig said:
And at the rate .22 ammunition is escalating in price, the notion of reloading center-fire cartridges instead of shooting rimfire ammunition in order to be more affordable, is becoming more and more viable, if not practical.
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Does Ohio have restrictive ammo laws? .22 ammo is easily available at well less than 5 cents each.

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/22lr

What kind of reloading do you do where a primer, powder, and bullet are less than a nickel total?
 
This is going way off topic.....

The OP's question has been asked & answered.

Re. the .22 as a first gun - - and again,,I have to stress first gun, as in the new shooter goes out and buys a gun...this is not a gun that is supplied to them as a gun to learn with by someone that is more experienced,,,,it is something they have to go out and spend their hard earned money on,,,,,a caliber that they are going to be told is inadequate for the job of protection they want a gun for in the first place,,,,,a gun which they will grow tired of in very short order,,,,

I don't ever recommend a new shooter buy one to start.

& yes, if you cast your own lead bullets, it's quite possible to reload a premium grade of ammunition (in terms of accuracy) for a nickle.
Lead can be had for about $1.85 a pound, which is enough to make about 45 SWC 158 grain bullets.
A pound of Bullseye (7000 grains) is enough to load 2333 rounds of .38 spl.
SPP run about 3 cents each.

The added bonus there is that the stuff I load beats anything in .22lr you can buy - - outside of the real premium stuff like Ely.

That's the best part of handloads - - you never make "junk". Why would you? It takes just as much effort & it costs nearly the exact same amount, to make the best load for your gun that you can.
 
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