ruger blackhawk, 44 special

G.willikers said
Yes, there is a .44 Vaquero, from Lipseys:http://www.lipseysguns.com/post/Ruge...cial-Blue.aspx

..And again, as previously stated, it is a "New Vaquero." The .44 Special NV is unique (so far) among NVs in having the improper "Vaquero" (only) stamped on the frame. And, inexplicably, for the past two years or so Ruger itself as well as its distributors have been calling all New Vaquero just Vaquero in their literature and ads....adding to the conlfusion. ALL factory .44 Specials are mid-frames regardless of fixed or adjustable sight or what it says on the frame.

The .44 Mag Flattop, aka 50th Anniversary model, is unique in being a hybrid. As mentioned, like all .44 Mag Blackhawks (and SBHs) dating back to the 50s--as well as the .44 Mag "old" Vaquero--the cylinder frame is the large frame. But, in the 50th Ann NM .44 FT it is mated to the mid-frame's (50th Ann .357 and.44 Sp and .45 FTs and all NVs) steel XR3 gripframe.
 
what ive seen and heard is that ruger does the same steel and heat treat on all black hawk cylinders, and since the 44 special has a bit more steel in it then the 45 colt version which is proven to hit 80% of 44 mag chamber pressure and survive..
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You're a liar or badly mis-informed.

The Ruger LARGE FRAME 45LC cylinders can indeed hit 80% of the pressure of their 44Mag cylinders.

But we are not talking about large-frame guns in this thread. Again: all 44Spl factory Rugers to date have been built on the mid-frame, whether adjustable sight ("Blackhawk") or fixed ("Vaquero" or "New Vaquero").

Stop giving out bad information that is safety-related.
 
I see it far too often, folks applying large frame .44Mag/.45Colt logic to mid-frame .44Spl/.45Colt sixguns. It ain't the same and believing so will get you in trouble.
 
The points being made would be moot if people would use and shoot .44 Special loads in .44 Special guns and .44 Magnum loads in .44 Magnum guns. .44 Special for "fun", .44 Magnum for hunting (assuming that, because it is about single actions, not self-defense or concealed carry). It is not rocket science.
 
A lot of the confusion comes from Ruger's naming conventions.

Between 1973 and 2004, every single "Blackhawk" was built on the large frame. So a lot of general statements got made about "Blackhawks are built on the large frames". Or sometimes "New Model Blackhawks...".

Well the 50th Blackhawk Flattop 357 of 2005 shipped on the mid-frame. Then the 44Spl did the same. And what used to be an accurate general statement isn't anymore.
 
I managed to get one of the first 2000 ruger 44 specials back in 2009 and I can tell you that everything I read about them indicated that they were on medium 357 mag frames. I fell in love with the 44 special round back in the early 90s when I had a ruger bisley 44 magnum and bought a box of 44 specials and fired them in it. I knew then what all of the gun scribes were talking about. I got a Charter Arms snub in 44 special but it wasn't what I was looking for. I started writing letters to gun magazines asking for a full size 44 special just like many of them advised us to all do. Since Ruger has now made them a regular in their line up they must be selling. I have a ruger 45 colt bisley for hunting. The 44 is the smaller gun I can carry for just plain fun while still being able to deliver a 240 grain pill.
 
I'll concede I may have given some marginal info.I got the 30,000 psi limit from the Ross Seifred article.And,it is fair to say Ross pushed the .45 Colt Ruger loads pretty far.I'll accept Ross has a bit of hotrodder spirit.It is also true his pressure figure was speculative.

However,the loads I compared in a Handloader magazine showed H-110 charge weights identical to Ross's loads,and Handloader claimed 25,000 psi for the load.I will assume Handloader has better resources .

In any case,I cannot measure the pressure.

Both Ross and Handloader came up with the same loads.

Without recomending anything to anybody,when I get around to developing the load,I have 500 .431 gr Laser casts SWC's,I think they are 240 gr.I am planning to order a 280 gr LBT type mold.I am thinking my max will be around 18 to 19 gr H-110,depending on bullet,as described in the Seifred and Handloader articles.

BTW,fitting the Brownells reduced power trigger spring and setting the hammer and sear surfaces flush with the top of the mill vise jaws and just a few strokes of shine with a hard arkansas stone,maintaining square and the same angles,makes for a real nice trigger.Some travel,as it is still full sear engagement.

On the frame arguement,I do not claim to be an expert,but seems to me the window for the cylinder is a touch longer on the Super Blackhawk,and maybe the 30 Carbine version.I won't argue it,though,I do not claim to know for sure.

It is true that the .44 Lipsey spl is on a mid size .357 flat top frame.

I have a 1970's vintage New Model Super Blackhawk 44 mag I cut to 5"

I'll keep it as a match for the Browning 92 I rebuilt as an oct bbl ,crescent butt rifle.

Short of Alaska,I think the stout .44 spl loads will handle anything I need to do.
 
The points being made would be moot if people would use and shoot .44 Special loads in .44 Special guns and .44 Magnum loads in .44 Magnum guns. .44 Special for "fun", .44 Magnum for hunting (assuming that, because it is about single actions, not self-defense or concealed carry). It is not rocket science.
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No, it's not rocket science and you have outlined exactly what I was referring to with my "pigeonhole" comment. Some folks have the .44Spl labeled with big letters that say, "for fun only, not to be taken seriously" and can't fathom anyone actually using one for a purpose other than wasting bullets and powder. Sorry sir but a good .44Spl is a wonderful outdoorsman's cartridge when loaded closer to its potential. Like I said, the fine 950fps Skeeter load will cleanly take any deer or hog that walks. The 1200fps Keith load just provides a little "more".
 
No, it's not rocket science and you have outlined exactly what I was referring to with my "pigeonhole" comment. Some folks have the .44Spl labeled with big letters that say, "for fun only, not to be taken seriously" and can't fathom anyone actually using one for a purpose other than wasting bullets and powder. Sorry sir but a good .44Spl is a wonderful outdoorsman's cartridge when loaded closer to its potential. Like I said, the fine 950fps Skeeter load will cleanly take any deer or hog that walks. The 1200fps Keith load just provides a little "more".
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Wasting bullets and powder? I call it shooting "fun". I take it very seriously. In regard to the rest of your post, a Keith load of 22 grains of 2400 under a Keith cast bullet will cleanly take any deer or hog that walks. The 1400fps Keith load (in a 44 magnum) just provides a little "more". And it does it without the excessive wear and recoil of trying to "magnumize" a .44 special. This makes more sense to those of us who shoot a significant amount more than we actually hunt and to those of us who have and shoot multiple guns, both .44 specials and .44 magnums. Now if you only have one gun, a .44 special, pushing it would make sense in a large game (but not rabbits, skunks, racoons, wood chucks, rats, opossums, etc. ) hunting scenario.
 
In regard to the rest of your post, a Keith load of 22 grains of 2400 under a Keith cast bullet will cleanly take any deer or hog that walks.
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Indeed it will, out of a larger and heavier sixgun.


This makes more sense to those of us who shoot a significant amount more than we actually hunt and to those of us who have and shoot multiple guns, both .44 specials and .44 magnums.
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Apparently it makes enough sense to enough people for Ruger to finally offer a factory mid-frame .44Spl. Personally, I have more .44's than any other family of cartridges, including seven .44Mag's, three .44Spl's, two .44Colt's and three .44 percussion guns. More .44Spl's are in my future, factory and custom. So your one gun argument makes no sense to me. I like to enjoy the full potential of the .44Spl in appropriate guns, just like folks enjoy stretching the .45Colt's legs in large frame sixguns. That shouldn't be so difficult to understand, we (the collective we) have been doing it for +80yrs.
 
I like to enjoy the full potential of the .44Spl in appropriate guns, just like folks enjoy stretching the .45Colt's legs in large frame sixguns.
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+1 . That is exactly how I feel. Just know your guns. For example, you do not put the Skeeter (7.5g Unique under 240g SWC) or Keith load (17g 2400 under 240g bullet) in a CA Bulldog..... but perfectly fine in the Ruger flattop .44Spec.
 
That shouldn't be so difficult to understand, we (the collective we) have been doing it for +80yrs.
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What I do not understand is premature wear and battering of .44 special guns when .44 magnums with do .44 magnum stuff better. It makes just as much sense to me has hot rodding a .38 special when there are .357 magnums in my arsenal. Perchance you could explain the difference.
 
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Apparently it makes enough sense to enough people for Ruger to finally offer a factory mid-frame .44Spl.
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And I am sure that Ruger approves of the use of hotter than SAAMI loads in that gun...do you think that is why they offer it? So, that people can magnumize it?
 
Keith & Skeet

Uncle Elmer's heavy .44 Special load consisting of a 250-grain SWC at an estimated 1150-1200 fps...depending on barrel length...was for hunting or carrying as a backup sidearm in big bear country. The revolvers that he used were mostly the 1873 SAA, and it made for a light, portable sixgun with enough punch to take what needed taking at reasonable distances. It was also hard on the old Colts, and he knew it.

A 250-grain SWC AT 1200 FPS will shoot through a bull Elk shoulder to shoulder...or through a Whitetail lengthwise...at 50 yards. More "power" through more velocity would do little to enhance the lethality of the bullet.

When he lobbied for the ".44 Special Magnum" he wanted more velocity with the the same bullet, or equal velocity with a slightly heavier bullet...not for more killing power...but for flatter trajectory over the distances that he often had to use.

Keith and Skelton understood that, beyond a certain level, more velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory, and that if more killing power is needed...what is needed is more bullet rather than more speed. Velocity...energy...and momentum are all variable, while mass is constant.

With the availability of light .357 Magnum revolvers, there's no real need to hot-rod the .38 Special, unless somebody owns an old Smith Outdoorsman Model in .38-44 caliber, and they want to take a trip down Nostalgia Road.

For the backpacker who wants a small, portable .44 caliber revolver, the Keith .44 Special data has something to offer. I think Ruger dropped their candy when they used the heavier steel frame on their mid-framed .44 Special Blackhawks...but maybe they'll rectify that if there's enough demand.
 
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And I am sure that Ruger approves of the use of hotter than SAAMI loads in that gun...do you think that is why they offer it? So, that people can magnumize it?
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No silly but that is one very big reason why CONSUMERS asked for it......for 50yrs.


What I do not understand is premature wear and battering of .44 special guns when .44 magnums with do .44 magnum stuff better.
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Where are all these .44Spl's that have been battered to pieces? Surely, after 80yrs of battering, they should be practically littering the ground.


It makes just as much sense to me has hot rodding a .38 special...
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Same concept, just as safe as any other, if proper loads are used in proper guns. Some folks actually own original .38-44's. Some folks own modern USFA Rodeo's or SAA's in .38Spl and want to load them heavy. Because USFA doesn't chamber a .357.


Sorry sir but there is no good reason and no factual evidence to support your position. It is unfounded fear, bias and this weird imagined hole that you force these cartridges into.
 
So...As I am to blame for some erroneous info in this thread, can someone please tell me if I am catching on yet?

Ruger made the 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum on the mid-size Flat-Top cylinder frame a few years back...

Now they are building .44 Specials on the same size cylinder frame?
 
Ruger made the 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum on the mid-size Flat-Top cylinder frame a few years back...
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NO they did not. The 50th .44Mag flattop is on the LARGE frame.

Come on guys lets do a little research before posting as 'fact' :) .

And nobody said we and those that have went before (Keith, Skeeter, Taffin, Seyfried, Brian Pearce, others) are Magnumizing the .44Spec. 1200fps is not in Magnum Territory in my books. 1300-1500fps... now that is magnum territory for a 240g bullet. Want to go there, grab a .44magnum, but as stated above, 1200fps will do just about anything that needs doing in North America. For Africa, move up to the .45 Colt (Ruger Only Loads of course), .44Mag, or the .454. Not a handgun hunter but I do read about those that were and are.
 
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*sigh*

So Is the .44 Special the only mid-size frame gun Ruger has made since the 50's that they call Blackhawk?

ADDING:

I see the year was 1973:

Sadly 1973 also marked the end of the mid sized frame Blackhawks, from this year on all Blackhawks, regardless to caliber, were to be built on the large Super Blackhawk frame.

I also see that Ruger made the .357 '50th Anniversary' on the mid frame...

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=31

So we are up to two guns since 73 on an oddball frame...Any others?
 
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