so I have a TC Compass in 30-06. Every time I shoot it it is absolutely filthy when i get done. I think I finally figured out why. Ran a bore scope down it. it has rough rings of machining marks all the way down the barrel, better in some places but consistent over all. The gun seems to shoot well, it keeps it 1moa claim with my hand loads and me using proper shooting technique. has anyone else seen this?
rough barrel
- Thread starter Shadow9mm
- Start date
Fairly common in economy rifles. What you are seeing is tooling marks left when the bore was drilled and reamed before rifling. Rifles with bores like that usually still shoot OK for 10-20 shots then start to wander as fouling builds up. Clean it and it's right back where it's supposed to be shooting. I see this quite often in Savages since they button rifle, many other rifle makers have switched to hammer forging their barrels. You won't see it in custom barrels because the bores are honed between reaming and rifling, then lapped after rifling.
That's about what I figured. It seems to hold a little longer than 20rnds rounds before falling off, more in the 40-60rnd range. I have to clean it aggressively after every session, but I have a routine down now. I have also started using JB Bore cleaning compound and JB bore bright polish after I clean with solvents. It gets the last bit of copper out and it supposed to smooth the bore and help prevent future fouling. might help smooth out some of the roughness in the bore over time.
I have considered this, the idea being the imperfections get filled in with fouling and copper and make the bore smoother/better right? I may try this just to see what kind accuracy I get with a fouled bore but I struggle with the idea of leaving a gun dirty. With my current routine I'm hoping it will eventually smooth things out, kind of like hand lapping. I'm using the JB bore bright products last in the hopes of removing the last bits of copper fouling and polishing the bore. I have used the JB cleaner twice and the polish once and while it is not removing the the marks the do seems to look slightly smoother.
I'm kind of taking this as a learning experience. I got the rifle for $300 with the primary use being hunting. So far it is keeping its promise and is shooting right at or just under 1MOA with my hand loads that I haven't even finished working up yet. If all I have to do is take a cold bore shot on game it fits the bill perfectly. That being said it wont be as good for plinking or target shooting as I had hoped, but if all I have to do it a quick cleaning at the range every 20rnds or so, I can do that and let the barrel cool at the same time. Next rifle will have a cold hammer forged barrel, I have learned.
stagpanther
New member
Ditch the borescope and your nightmares will be over. 
Unfortunately I have already taken the red pill, there is no going back... But its not something I am going to obsess over. I understand the issues with my rifle now and they can be managed.Ditch the borescope and your nightmares will be over.
That makes sense, but it shows poor QC from TC on their barrels. Nothing much to be done anyway, other than swap barrels, which is impractical at best on a $300 rifle. Best I can think of is shoot and see where accuracy starts to fall off whether that be 20 to 100rnds and make sure I do a light cleaning at the range if I'm shooting more than that. A deep cleaning when I get home and follow up with the JB cleaner and polish in the hopes of smoothing things out a little over time. It will be a good experiment to see if the JB helps over time or if its just a waste to begin with if nothing else.
stagpanther
New member
I think most of these mass production button-rifled barrels have the same amount of chatter more or less, depends on whether they polish them afterwards. I think they are capable of very good accuracy--as long as the number of single-session shots is kept low--I think of the chatter as "fouling teeth." Im guessing the vast majority of these types of barrels are aimed at hunters.
Cut rifling hand lapped barrel is going to cost some money--but when you look at the performance advantages for a couple of hundred extra dollars the value in the long term pays for itself.
Don't think I'd call that 'rough'. I've heard of milsurps with moderately heavily pitted barrels that shoot very well.
The "absolutely filthy" part isn't from that either. The powder used can and will do that to a high end bore lapped match barrel too
"...make the bore smoother/better right..." Nope. The assorted gunk isn't hard enough to make the least bit of difference.
Keep in mind that a TC Compass is a hunting rifle. There are people who would do unnatural things for a hunting rifle that shoots in 1 MOA. What's important is its first shot accuracy, not all day accuracy.
"...then start to wander..." Lot of that can be a heated barrel too. Lotta variables involved.
The "absolutely filthy" part isn't from that either. The powder used can and will do that to a high end bore lapped match barrel too
"...make the bore smoother/better right..." Nope. The assorted gunk isn't hard enough to make the least bit of difference.
Keep in mind that a TC Compass is a hunting rifle. There are people who would do unnatural things for a hunting rifle that shoots in 1 MOA. What's important is its first shot accuracy, not all day accuracy.
"...then start to wander..." Lot of that can be a heated barrel too. Lotta variables involved.
Shooting varget, so not terribly dirty. Not sure on first shot yet. Trying to get my loads worked up then I will sight in with cold bore. When shooting groups I generally try to let the barrel cool, with the pencil thin barrel it heats up a bit well after 4-5 rounds.
"fouling teeth" I like it. Hopefully I can smooth some of them out a bit with the JB so they don't take such a big bite and make it a little easier to clean.
Colorado Redneck
New member
As advised by some of the sage members, I quite worrying about removing all copper fouling after each shooting session. However, on deer rifles the carbon fouling is cleaned after 20-30 rounds. Copper can become a hell of a problem if it begins to severely affect accuracy. There seems to be a happy medium for each rifle. A Rem 700 in 204 Ruger didn't like its barrel cleaned to white metal. It also lost accuracy significantly after about 70 rounds. So, it was a pita because there would be about 50 rounds after fouling that were tack drivers. About the time the fun really got started shooting sod poodles, the darn thing would start becoming erratic. Thats just an example of having to figure out how to coexist with a persnickity barrel. After a couple thousand rounds it started throwing fliers and keyholing. It went bye bye. Persistence.
Consider Tubbs Final Finish
It does work, does not appreciably "wear your barrel," and reduces fouling/cleaning by an order of magnitude
It does work, does not appreciably "wear your barrel," and reduces fouling/cleaning by an order of magnitude
I was just going to suggest Final Finish, but Mehavey beat me to it.
I would give it a try.
Essentially bullets with various lapping compounds embedded into them.
It still amazes me that people think running a borescope down the barrel of a $400 rifle is a good idea!
I'll give you the spoiler, and tell you NOT to do it with a Savage barrel.
I would give it a try.
Essentially bullets with various lapping compounds embedded into them.
It still amazes me that people think running a borescope down the barrel of a $400 rifle is a good idea!
I'll give you the spoiler, and tell you NOT to do it with a Savage barrel.
thank you both mehavey and std7mag. I had seen the Tubbs system years ago and completely forgotten about it. I ordered a set, cant wait to load them up and run them through.
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bamaranger
New member
two
Yeah, I've got two rifles that are relatively heavy copper foulers, and though I have not had either bore scoped, I'm betting they resemble the pics, maybe worse.
Fouler #1 is a early 1990's era Rem 700 ADL in .270. Fouler #2 is a Mossberg 800M in .243. Both will display copper at the muzzle as early as 10 shots, and deteriorating accuracy by 20-25 rounds. The good news is, when cleaned to bare metal, both are MOA accurate for that first box of shells or so. That's way good enough for me for a hunting rifle.
Yeah, I've got two rifles that are relatively heavy copper foulers, and though I have not had either bore scoped, I'm betting they resemble the pics, maybe worse.
Fouler #1 is a early 1990's era Rem 700 ADL in .270. Fouler #2 is a Mossberg 800M in .243. Both will display copper at the muzzle as early as 10 shots, and deteriorating accuracy by 20-25 rounds. The good news is, when cleaned to bare metal, both are MOA accurate for that first box of shells or so. That's way good enough for me for a hunting rifle.
stagpanther
New member
That's probably the majority of rifles aimed at hunters, though recently I've started taking a peep down some high grade production rifle's bores and was pretty surprised at how rough they are. Most of these are not intended to be used by OCD reloaders chasing the teeny groups (which is pretty much what I am). Wonder why they all tell you all warrantees are off if you shoot a reload through it?
I have a recent mossberg patriot production rifle and it's bore compares very favorably with those of rifles costing twice as much or more in my collection. Don't know if I just got lucky (unlikely, since more often than not I attract the defects, LOL) or they may have improved their production since you bought your's.
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