Roles of Springs in Recoil and Feeding of the 1911 Government

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"T O'Heir" said:
"...which are used to store energy for operation..." Most springs in a 1911/1911A1 are there to return the part to whence it came after firing. Not provide function by string energy.

The recoil return spring stores energy during the recoil phase to power

1. Loading
2. Lockup

during the loading phase.

If it didn't store this energy, then it would not return the slide. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

The main spring is an exception. It provides 'power' to the hammer by being compressed when the hammer is back. There isn't enough power in the main spring to stop the slide doing anything.

Sure there is. Any load reduces velocity.

Measure the velocity of a car on a straightaway with a certain throttle position.

If you put a 2000lb load on that same car, give it the same throttle position under the same conditions, it will take longer to reach top speed and the top speed will be slower than without the load.

The main spring isn't connected to the slide.

Of course it is. Via the hammer, via the strut via the cap. Just like the recoil return spring isn't connected directly to the slide, but rather through its cap, through the barrel bushing.

The return spring is called that for a reason. It returns the slide to its closed position.

Of course.

Josh
 
Sorry, but the original information is, at best incomplete and is partly flat out wrong, as are some of the comments. I won't even attempt to discuss each error, but some experience and knowledge, such as a high school level physics course, would be needed. A quick look at some "coffee table book" pictures won't cut it. For example, the OP seems to not really understand a locked breech, why it is needed and why not all "auto" pistols use it, something that would seem necessary to even begin to understand the functioning of such pistols.

Jim
 
Sorry, but the original information is, at best incomplete and is partly flat out wrong, as are some of the comments. I won't even attempt to discuss each error, but some experience and knowledge, such as a high school level physics course, would be needed. A quick look at some "coffee table book" pictures won't cut it. For example, the OP seems to not really understand a locked breech, why it is needed and why not all "auto" pistols use it, something that would seem necessary to even begin to understand the functioning of such pistols.

Please do.

How am I demonstrating a lack of understand of the locked breech? Or physics, for that matter? Please elaborate.

Josh
 
Josh Smith said:
-Take away from this that the primary recoil and barrel/slide lockup timing control is the mainspring, NOT the "recoil" (slide return) spring.

The mainspring is compressed by the hammer, which is cocked by slide movement after a round is fired. The mainspring remains compressed until the trigger is pulled with the next shot.

Lockup, however, occurs as the slide chambers the next round -- which happens WHILE the hammer is locked back and the mainspring remains compressed. A heavier mainspring won't make the gun lockup any differently than a light one, nor will a heavier or lighter recoil spring. If the rounds used are sufficiently powerful to properly cycle the gun, things will still work. It works because of the stored force in the recoil spring!

A DAO version of a 1911, if you (for some strange reason) wanted one, would still cycle and lockup, but the mainspring would still play basically the same role it plays in a SA 1911: powering the hammer!​

Timing is the term used in these discussions, but the key relationships are physical ones -- how the various parts fit together and interact. The SPEED with which they interact are generally unimportant, as they can cycle faster than we can pull the trigger. Those physical relationships are NOT controlled by springs. The recoil spring (using stored recoil force) powers the parts -- but the slide powered by recoil charges the mainspring.
 
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How am I demonstrating a lack of understand of the locked breech? Or physics, for that matter? Please elaborate.

Since you asked...;)

lets start with this point,

Sure there is. Any load reduces velocity.

I was having a difficult time understanding why you felt the mainspring held the slide closed, until you said this. Your example of the car, taking longer under a heavier load is what a car does, but doesn't quite apply the same way to the slide of a pistol, in any practical manner.

The function of the mainspring is to power the hammer, and the force required by the slide to overcome the at rest tension of the spring, and then compress it is a constant, and something vastly overcompensated for by the energy of the slide during recoil.

I'm stating the dwell time as a function of time, not distance. The more effort it takes to cock the hammer against the mainspring, the longer the dwell time.

This is indeed a point of confusion. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that without the resistance of cocking the hammer, the slide would move faster, and therefore, the mainspring "holds the slide closed" for a tiny amount of time.

OK, I get that. However, without covering the other things that ALSO "hold the slide closed" and by only looking at time as "dwell" and not time/distance, your statement implies that it is only the mainspring's resistance to compression that "holds the slide closed", which is, not the case.

Pardon the pun, but your explanation of the slide unlock sequence has a "missing LINK".

Yes, there is some resistance to rearward slide movement from the hammer at rest, the difference you can feel, simply cycling the slide with the hammer down, and again with the hammer cocked. It's not a lot of force, compared to the recoil energy of the slide.

IF you were to remove the mainspring's effect on "holding the slide closed", it would make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to the slide opening (unlocking from the barrel). The slide and barrel unlocking is a matter of DISTANCE, NOT spring resistance. When the barrel, running backward, locked with the slide, hits the end of the link's travel, the geometry of the angles of the parts yanks the rear of the barrel down, away from the slide, unlocking the two.

The point in TIME that this happens can be very slightly affected by changing the amount of spring tension needed to be overcome (and remember to include the resistance of the recoil spring, as it compresses and loads up), what you are calling "dwell", but the point in the movement of the slide and barrel that they unlock is always going to be the same.

Going to a heavier or lighter spring set is going to change the time by a tiny fraction of a second but does not, and cannot change the point of movement where unlocking occurs.

Another point, not clearly pointed out, is how springs "store" energy.

- The greater the amount of energy stored, the more force the recoil return spring will exert against the force of recoil. This means that the heavier the recoil return spring, the greater the feel of the recoil imparted to your hand.

yes, BUT, this only applies when comparing different springs, to each other, in their response to compression. Compress an 18lb spring with 300lbs force, and you have 18lbs potential energy stored. Compress a 25lb spring and you have 25lbs. ALL the excess is pass on as "felt" recoil. And the 300lb source doesn't notice the difference, either. The gun has many times the power to do either spring, so there is no practical difference, IF YOU STAY WITHIN DESIGN PARAMETERS.

Go far enough outside them, and things change. Go with a heavy enough spring and you don't need a locked breech. But you will need to accept other limitations.

7. The slide pauses momentarily at full rearward travel.

yes, because it hits the frame (recoil spring plug). How HARD it hits depends on different factors, but it does hit. Which is why the "shock buffer" pads some people use wear out and need to be replaced every so often. So, the slide is physically stopped from rearward movement, while the energy moving it is not, and continues reward, again, being felt as recoil. The "pause" is the time it takes for that energy to drop below the force stored in the recoil spring. When that happens, the spring moves the slide forward, again.

8. The slide begins forward under the stored power of the recoil return spring. Before the slide can get up much forward velocity, it is slowed again as it strips the next round from the magazine. This is very important.

9. Due to the engineered slowing of the slide, it comes forward to a soft stop.

- This is why it's OK to chamber a round from a magazine, but not to drop the slide on an empty chamber! A slide dropped on an empty chamber is not slowed and will batter the lugs and cause the sear to bounce. It strains the gun.

The "soft stop" you get when chambering a round is an additional reason to only load through the magazine, not the main reason, which is to avoid possible damage to the extractor. The 1911 extractor is, like the Mauser 98 extractor, not designed to snap over the rim of a chambered round. It is designed to have the rim fed up underneath it as the action closes. IN an EMERGENCY, they can be forced over the rim of a chambered round, but they might be damaged or completely break if this is done.

(modifications to the gun to allow the extractor to snap over the rim were not part of the original design, though they have become common since.)

As to the "hard stop" of letting the slide slam shut empty, this practice has been found to be detrimental to some highly tuned competition type guns. However, these guns all do vary from the GI specs, in several ways.

I've never found a GI spec 1911or A1 damaged due to any amount of letting the slide slam shut empty, and I used to inspect them for the Army. Simply put, the GI spec guns were built to take the abuse, and not fail, something a highly tuned customized gun usually isn't.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
A light recoil spring would let a bit more of the recoil force pass to the shooter (as less is stored in the spring), and the slide would cycle a bit more quickly; a heavier spring would slow the slide down a bit as it moves to the rear, storing a bit more of that force, and using it when the slide slams forward (with a bit more force.) I suspect the DURATION of the recoil experience would be the biggest felt difference. A sharp snap vs. a longer push might be experienced with some springs.
Actually, it's just the opposite. Remember, "cycle" encompasses the entire cycle, from firing to slide retraction, to hammer cocking, to slide returning, to stripping and chambering the next round, to closing the action and returning to battery.

I've played with recoil springs in 1911s a lot. Probably not as much as 1911Tuner, but ... a lot. A light recoil (return) spring may initially allow the slide to retract faster but, overall, the lighter the spring, the slower and lazier the cycle. I once had the opportunity to test a high-end 9mm competition 1911. The cycling was so slow that at times I felt like I should reach out with my weak hand and give the slide a boost.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
A light recoil spring would let a bit more of the recoil force pass to the shooter (as less is stored in the spring), and the slide would cycle a bit more quickly; a heavier spring would slow the slide down a bit as it moves to the rear, storing a bit more of that force, and using it when the slide slams forward (with a bit more force.) I suspect the DURATION of the recoil experience would be the biggest felt difference. A sharp snap vs. a longer push might be experienced with some springs.
Aquila Blanco said:
Actually, it's just the opposite. Remember, "cycle" encompasses the entire cycle, from firing to slide retraction, to hammer cocking, to slide returning, to stripping and chambering the next round, to closing the action and returning to battery.

I'll bow to your greater experience on this point, but wonder why the folks who want a faster cycling gun in the gun games often go to lighter springs augmented with buffers? (In one case, a very light recoil spring and TWO BUFFERS where one might normally be used.) They feel the guns thus modified cycle faster and have a bit less muzzle rise. (Maybe the speed isn't as important to them as muzzle rise?) I would expect most guns to work in a similar manner, so maybe i just got (or heard or only understood) part of the story...

I do believe that the slide will slam forward with greater force when using a heavier recoil spring (which I think would that probably means greater speed) when using a heavier recoil spring... but I always felt that the trip going back (pushing the slide back) took longer because of the stronger spring when using the same ammo.

As for me, I tend to go with the lightest recoil springs that allow my gun to function well with the ammo I use -- as I don't like to have to use a bumper jack when I rack the slide.
 
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The big advantage to lighter recoil springs is less muzzle-dip as the slide goes forward, which makes it easier to track your sights.

I also used two shockbuffs when I was shooting steel with some really light .45 ammo. The slide couldn't go to slidelock so I only used two on our 5-shot, revolver neutral steel matches.
 
josh smith said:
Measure the velocity of a car on a straightaway with a certain throttle position.

If you put a 2000lb load on that same car, give it the same throttle position under the same conditions, it will take longer to reach top speed and the top speed will be slower than without the load.

To what are you attributing the lower top speed due to additional mass? Increased aerodynamic drag from the shape of the added mass? Increased wheel bearing drag from the higher load?
 
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Josh Smith expressed it badly, because his discussion mixed top speed with fixed speed. For a pre-set throttle position, a heavier vehicle will travel more slowly. That's basic physics. Putting a load inside a vehicle doesn't affect the aerodynamics, but it adds weight. Moving a weight (mass) involves work -- in the sense of "work" as defined in physics as moving a mass through a distance.

More mass ==> more work.
 
"Quote:
7. The slide pauses momentarily at full rearward travel."

"yes, because it hits the frame (recoil spring plug)."

No, it doesn't. Neither the recoil spring plug nor the rear of the recoil spring tunnel hits the frame. (Nothing about the 1911 is as simple as it looks.)

Jim
 
Walt Sherrill said:
I do believe that the slide will slam forward with greater force when using a heavier recoil spring (which I think would that probably means greater speed) when using a heavier recoil spring... but I always felt that the trip going back (pushing the slide back) took longer because of the stronger spring when using the same ammo.



After the bullet is fired though who cares Walt if it takes a split second longer. I guess I'm not quite following. That split second of slower slide speed is very minute compared to the time it takes you to get the sights back to where they were. At least I always thought it was.
 
Rinspeed said:
After the bullet is fired though who cares Walt if it takes a split second longer. I guess I'm not quite following. That split second of slower slide speed is very minute compared to the time it takes you to get the sights back to where they were. At least I always thought it was.

I think you're on the same path but maybe going in a different direction than I was. :)

I'll agree that the time difference (due to slide movement) makes no difference in practical terms (i.e., the gun cycles faster than anyone can pull the trigger, and faster than most of us are likely to get it back on target -- but it can matter to some shooters.

This point was mentioned in the first place only because of the slight differences that can be FELT when using a heavier or lighter recoil spring. Some describe this as the duration of the recoil impulse. Sharper recoil, or more of a push, etc. I must have been misinterpreting what I was feeling, but...

The speed of the slide's movement and the amount of muzzle flip it can create can be affected (and tuned) by recoil springs and buffers. THAT ability to modify muzzle flip apparently matters to some of the more gifted of competitive shooters... as less flip will allow them to get back on target more quickly. (Some feel that a heavier recoil spring can cause the muzzle to DIP more -- as the slide slams forward -- and bringing it back UP make take more time and effort than a slide that doesn't slip as much)

(I'm not adept or "reflex-gifted" enough to take advantage of any such reduction in muzzle flip.)
 
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