Rock River v. Bushmaster for Shorty AR

C

Coronach

New member
Okay, rather than ask unanswerables (which is better? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?)(<--Though feel free to opine on either!), I'll try to ask specifics:

I'm looking for a short, handy AR carbine. Bushmaster's latest catalogue has OAL dimensions, and all of them hover at 38", except for one variant that states 34". I can't figure out if this is merely because one model was measured without the muzzle brake and the rest were measured with it, or if there is some other difference. Another possible reason could be the A4 telestock v. the standard stock. Anyone know?

Also, anyone know the relative dimensions and weights of Rock River's AR carbines? They're not listed on the webpage.


Also, can anyone quote dealer price to me on the various models?

And...which is better? ;)

Thanks,
Mike
 
Yes, I did. IIRC they needed money in a while ago, and I didn't have it on-hand when they needed it (still don't, but I will be done saving soon enough). I don't buy things on credit, as a rule (except houses...kinda hard to live in a cardboard box until you can save up $50,000 ;)).

Mike
 
I shoot a Bushy Shorty and have put together (free-float barrel, JP triggers, etc.) a couple for friends. I read the specs for the RR ar15 limited edition and the specs look fine. However, I'd personally prefer a Bushmaster, as I'm just more familiar with Bushmaster's excellent customer service. If the RR Shorty is available with a chrome-lined bore and chamber, and the prices are close, then you probably won't make a mistake buying either.

Whichever you get, I'd strongly recommend against getting the model with the 14.5" barrel and a permanently-attached brake. If you want a brake, buy the 16" model and add a post-ban brake. (I use a Smith)

If you compare the Bushmaster 16" with the RR 16", both with A-2 uppers, etc., you're not going to see much difference in weight and length specs. Any differences wouldn't be enough that you'd notice them in handling properties.
 
Thanks, Walter.

"Whichever you get, I'd strongly recommend against getting the model with the 14.5" barrel and a permanently-attached brake. If you want a brake, buy the 16" model and add a post-ban brake. (I use a Smith)"

Ok...you sorta answered my first question right there...they use a shorter barrel and the extra length is the brake, meeting minimum required length and keeping the OAL shorter than the other models on their list. I inferred that from what I was (re)reading on Bushy's catalogue, but I wasn't sure.

Why do you advise against getting the shorter barrel and permanently attached brake? Is it:

1. Legality: though it might be fed legal, it might not be legal in some states (a problem with the rifle in general, too)?

2. Accuracy: does the shorter-barrel/pinned brake assembly lead to bad groups?

3. Practicality: does it make it difficult to change the set-up later?

4. All of the above?

5. Something I haven't hit upon yet?

Thanks again,
Mike
 
to increase the fragmentation, ya want the extra fps from the 16 inch barrel

check out the Bushmaster lightweight profiled 16 inch barrel:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/abbl16sla.asp

NEW - Bushmaster "Superlight 16" Barrel Assembly for Pre Ban Rifles (includes
bayonet lug and flash suppressor). Definitely the lightest 16" barrel we've ever
offered - as requested by many of you. Diameter is .625 inches from the chamber
all the way forward - similar to the original Vietnam era A1 barrel profile.
Headspaced at the factory, this new lightweight is available as a Barrel Assembly
(with all parts forward of the upper receiver) - or as "Barrel Only" with barrel nut;
handguard cap, A2 Birdcage Suppressor and front sight.
 
I wouldn't want to give up 1.5" of rifled barrel; that's probably only 50fps, or so, but we're already talking about a pretty short barrel. You might decide to free-float the barrel, or change gas blocks, sights, etc. You'd find that really difficult with a brake welded on your barrel.

There are lots of designs of post-ban brakes. I use a Smith, which looks "military", and is attached with four setscrews. JP Enterprises makes a funny-looking post-ban, but it's probably the most effective available. The JP also attaches with setscrews.

Many AR shooters don't like a brake of any kind; there really isn't a lot of recoil. One other feature of a brake is that it protects the crown from damage.
 
I agree with WalterGAII.

If you ever shoot an AR, you will know that the muzzle brake is really not necessary. why

1. .223 bullet is so light. AR design uses in-line buffer to reduce the recoil. You won't feel any uncomfortable.

2. You don't shoot your AR in auto-mode, unless you have class III and shoot M16. With M16, you already have fire supressor. You shoot it shot after shot, everything is totally under your control.

3. The muzzle brake redirects the gas to side way. It is so loud and your peer is not going to shoot by you.

4. It may hurt the accuracy. The plain muzzle provides you more accuracy.

5. You will lose some velocity. I admit, the loss is not much.

The only thing you are going to gain is

"it looks so cool."
 
I bought a Bushy shorty carbine a couple of months ago and love it. Your original post said that you wanted a "short, handy AR carbine". That being the case I wouldn't worry about FPS, energy or foot pounds. If you want a short, handy AR carbine then get one. That is what I wanted and it works fine for me. Handles well, comes up to target well and shoots very nicely. If I ever have to "shoot a BG" with it I'm positive that he will NOT notice the shortened barrel.

The telestock advertised is actually a "fixed" as a tele is now illegal unless you have a pre ban, yada, yada, yada.

Have no experience with Rock River so I'll remain silent on that one.

Will the weapon you want serve your purpose and protect your life? Sure, just read my signature.

sks
 
OK...

Things are coming into focus. :)

One last niggling question:

flat-top v. A2/tactical upper

I was leaning towards a flat-top, so that way I would have flexibility to switch between an A2-style carry-handle, the 'tactical' carry handle, and just putting something directly on the flat-top rail.

However, I also noted that the carry-handles designed to go on the flat-top are rather pricey, making this 'flexibility' seem somewhat less desirable (:D)- the prices of carry handles alone approaches the cost of complete upper assemblies. So...decisions, decisions...

Any non-economical thoughts on using flat-top v. complete upper assemblies? I mean, any real disadvantages of either system, other than cost?

Mike
 
I was originally interested in the removable carry handle but went with the fixed handle. It works fine for me because it allows me the normal sights as well as the ACOG 4x32 that I've got mounted on top of the carry handle. Personally I don't find the ACOG sits too high. In fact I like it where it is.

Some have commented that they don't like it up so high and I guess it is a personal preference as to your build, height and needs. Several LEO use the retractable stock because of the reach factor while using body armor. For most of us it's a cosmetic difference.

I have read some posts with people saying that the removable handle will mess up the zero of either sights or scopes. Personall I cannot comment on that one.

Best of luck.

sks
 
The LEGP is the best buy, and you can pay it off in 3 months. You need to take a second look as it fits what you say you are looking for.
 
OK, I guess I do need to take a second look, especially since I wasunder the impression that they needed the loot sent in a while ago. I take it the sale is still open, eh?

Mike

PS One sticking point I do recall from reading about the group purchase- the chambers were not chromed, correct? How big of a deal is this, really?
 
I was thinking about a couple of points and wanted to include them. The idea of the retractable stock that doesn't retract isn't just a cosmetic non-functioning thing. One of it's advantages is that will lighten the rifle which can make a difference if you are carrying it for a prolonged time.

As to the flash suppressor all I've heard is that they are LOUD! The purpose of the flash suppressor is to reduce flash for the shooter not the guy on the receiving end. This can only be done with a true suppressor. I didn't get one because I didn't want a considerably louder gun.

sks
 
I took my LEGP out shooting today. Shot 150rds of crappy Wolf 55gr ammo. This brand spanking new rifle shot the Wolf better than my Colt pre ban A2. Hell the LEGP shot better than my A2 and it's (the A2) had less than a thousand rounds shot through it.

The LEGP shot better than my issue GUU5P (Car 15 with M4 barrel)

Chromed chambers are no big thing unless you want to go into combat shooting full auto for thousands of rounds. The M1, M14, M1 Carbine did not have chromed chambers or barrels.

The LEGP sale is still going on. You would be silly not to get one at such a low price. You will never find a better AR for twice the going rate of a LEGP.
 
Coronach,

Surprised noone has said this before me.

IMHO, you don't want a telescoping stock (especially one that is fixed). It is much harder to get a good check weld with the telescoping stocks, and harder to get the same weld each time. Go with the standard stock...
 
As to the flash suppressor all I've heard is that they are LOUD! The purpose of the flash suppressor is to reduce flash for the shooter not the guy on the receiving end. This can only be done with a true suppressor. I didn't get one because I didn't want a considerably louder gun.

----------

Flash suppressors that I've dealt with don't increase the noise to the shooter since the gasses are directed to the sides/up/down but not back towards the shooter as a muzzle brake does. I've had people standing to the side as I fired my M1A with flash suppressor comment that it's quite loud, but from the shooter's perspective, I don't believe it's any louder than a similar 308 with a bare muzzle.

Muzzle brakes on the other hand are very loud to everyone close by including the shooter.
 
Actually, flash supressers shouldn't be directing much gas anywhere, and my pre-ban Colt isn't any louder than a bare barrel post-ban. It's the muzzle brake that makes things loud in my experience.
 
Coronach, I'm not much of an AR guy, but I recently bought one for use in NRA Highpower matches. Lots of other HP guys told me to check out Rock River and John Holliger (a High Master HP shooter and competition AR builder.) I spoke to John on the phone, and he said he really liked the Rock River rifles, and he felt that they gave the best value in the industry. I wound up buying the rife in pieces and having him asemble it, and add a few HP additions. That was his suggestion...they even picked out a tightly fitting upper and lower for me. He didn't sugfgest that he assemble it because they do a poor job or anything, but some of his HP mods are done during assembly. John doesn't have to do any extra work to make these into good guns...They fit very tightly, without Accuwedges, and shoot great. Not being an AR guy, I have to say that I was a little sceptical about the whole thing, but this rifle looks and feels awesome. I think if you choose Rock River, you'll be very satisfied!
 
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