Rochester, NY man charged with murder, claims self defense

[David Armstrong]

Or we can say if the thief had actually been acting like a good kid and not committed a provocative and illegal act that with 100% certainty he wouldn't have put himself in the position that night to be confronted with any authority let alone the homeowner of the place he attempts to burglarize.

OK, not sure if anyone disagrees with that idea. Also not sure what that has to do with a GG escalating a situation and making it worse when there is no need.

There was no "gun fight".

Let's see now...GG claims he is being attacked, shoots BG with gun. Sure sounds like there was a gunfight to me.

If you want to skew the story and continue to imply the guy went out guns a'blazing, you're only doing all homeowners with firearms a disservice.

As I often say, it generally works better if one responds to what is actually said instaed of trying to make thigns up. There are no implications in the statement, there is no skew. It is simple and direct. If the homeowner has sayed inside the situation could have been resolved a lot better than it was.

I don't buy in to the "because a weapon was present that person was wrong" bologna. We don't buy into 'wait to be a victim'.

I'm not aware of anyone suggesting any such thing, so the strawman you are attacking is of your own design. Some of us are saying there are better ways to not be a victim than making things worse.

We are the good guys.

And we should act like good guys. Getting into shootings when there is no need is not a good thing, IMO. Getting into shootings where the law specifically prohibits it is a bad thing, IMO.

 

[Shorts]

Well if the thief is a "good kid", I'm certainly a good guy...err girl.

 

[David Armstrong]

The fact that this underage school age kid had the gun and was committing a felony by having it and that said gun is no longer on the streets is a good thing.

As I understood it, the homeowner had the gun, not the kid.

 

[pax]

Somehow this all fits under "Tactics and Training"

OS,

The moderators are listed at the top of the forum, and that's a great type of question to PM us about. We don't bite ... usually.

To answer the remark, I was just debating whether to move this one down to General or over to Law & Civil Rights. Neither seems quite appropriate, as so far the discussion has centered on whether the homeowner used the appropriate tactic in choosing to go outside and confront the thief, and whether he used the appropriate tactic in firing when he did. Keeping in mind that the goal is to choose tactics that will help you survive the immediate encounter and also survive the legal aftermath, there's always going to be some overlap between a discussion of physical tactics and the legal situation those physical tactics will land you in. Any good trainer knows that both aspects are important, and will discuss both aspects with their students. (Free advice: BEWARE!! of any trainer who downplays either half of this equation, especially those who actively make fun of concerns about legal entanglements...)

So for now, I think this discussion belongs here in Tactics and Training.

pax

 

[mikejonestkd]

Well said Pax,

My intent was to discuss the tactics that the homeowner used in this situation, and hopefully we can keep it on that track.

Just a heads up...The homeowner's car had not been broken into, he witnessed kids around other neighbor's cars and went outside to confront/ detain them. He was NOT defending his own property. The youth was not armed and did not claim to have a weapon.

Deadly force in defense of another person's property in NYS is a big NO NO..

Back to tactics everyone...

 

[doh_312]

It really says something about our society when all we do to help a neighbor is call 911. Sure that is what 911 is for, to summon additional help.

I certainly hope that my neighbors would confront someone stealing from me with the bussiness of a gun. Hopefully a large gun. I know I am willing to help my neighbor. If I peek out my window and see someone other than my neighbor going through my car, the wife calls 911, then the neighbor. While I head out with the shotgun to find out what is going on.

The fact that most of you would stay inside speaks loudly to the kind of person you are. However if that is what you would do then fine, I just hope your not my neighbor.

The fact that many of you are raining fire and brimstone on this good man speaks loudly to our society. Never lift more than a finger unless it is to help yourself. If this is the way American thinks then I am truly ashamed. When did we loose touch with our neighbors to the point we wont rally to protect their hard earned propert?

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I certainly hope that my neighbors would confront someone stealing from me with the bussiness of a gun. Hopefully a large gun. I know I am willing to help my neighbor. If I peek out my window and see someone other than my neighbor going through my car, the wife calls 911, then the neighbor. While I head out with the shotgun to find out what is going on.

I hope my neighbors DO NOT confront someone stealing from my car with a gun. Why do people feel that calling 911 is doing little or nothing? Why do neighbors have to take the risk upon themselves to protect property in a car? It's not as if the guy walked up on a kidnapping or rape. It was crap in a car. UNLOCKED cars no less. They weren't even breaking in.

PLEASE, if you are my neighbor DO NOT SHOOT PEOPLE who rummage around in my car!

 

[flippycat]

A neighbor, Roderick Scott, says he called 911, grabbed his gun and went outside. Scott told police he confronted the teens and when he did, Cervini came at him and he fired three shots.

Ahh my bad, I totally read that wrong lol....Cervini (the kid) came at him and he fired three shots.

I thought he implied the kid came at him and fired 3 shots.

I did not agree with his route when i thought the opposite happened. I now think he was wrong all together besides calling 911.

 

[doh_312]

SO be cause a car is unlocked personal property becomes puplic? I do not lock my car and I still don't want people to steal stuff from it. Besides a locked door just means a window needs to be broken. Or a lock picked.

I never said I want my neighbors to shoot. Just confront. Walk up, gun in hand, ask what the person is up to, ask if I know they are going through my stuff, and inform them police are on their way. Is that really to much to ask of a neighbor?

 

[doh_312]

Evil only triumps when good men stand by and do nothing.

 

[Evan Thomas]

As I understood it, the homeowner had the gun, not the kid.

Yes, according to this report, the boy who was shot was unarmed, and was "a considerable distance" from the homeowner.

Police say the suspect Roderick Scott walked out of his house and confronted the group of teenagers across the street. Investigators say they found the victim dead in a driveway about 50 feet diagonally from Scott's house.

Police say they're not aware of any recent break ins in the neighborhood. "We talked to a lot of people on the street. We have nothing that was stolen," said Lt. Wise.​

So he was off his property, it wasn't his car, and there's no evidence that the three boys had committed any crime -- the two fifteen-year-olds who were with Mr. Cervini have not been charged with anything. Whether or not Mr. Scott had any justification for "feeling threatened," it seems pretty clear that he (Mr. Scott) provoked the confrontation.

This was hardly self-defense, and I don't think "vigilantism" is too strong a word for it.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I never said I want my neighbors to shoot. Just confront. Walk up, gun in hand, ask what the person is up to, ask if I know they are going through my stuff, and inform them police are on their way. Is that really to much to ask of a neighbor?

Yes, it is. If I was your neighbor and you asked me to do that if someone was stealing things out of your car I'd politely tell you to pound salt. I will not confront someone with a gun unless I have no choice. I will not confront someone stealing things from MY OWN CAR with a gun, say nothing of yours.

Lets say this guy gets off scott free. Do you think he'll try the same thing again? That should give you some idea of how good of a plan it turned out to be.

SO be cause a car is unlocked personal property becomes puplic?
Evil only triumps when good men stand by and do nothing.

Nooooo.... they did call the police after all. Once again, how is calling the police "standing by and doing nothing."?

 

[David Armstrong]

While I head out with the shotgun to find out what is going on.

OK, it "Tactics and Training", so what tactical purpose does this serve that cannot be served in a safer and less confrontational manner?

Never lift more than a finger unless it is to help yourself.

Why is it that many seem to feel the only way to "lift a finger" is to put it on a trigger? There are lots of things one can do that do not involve starting a gunfight.

 

[Evan Thomas]

I hope my neighbors DO NOT confront someone stealing from my car with a gun. Why do people feel that calling 911 is doing little or nothing? Why do neighbors have to take the risk upon themselves to protect property in a car? It's not as if the guy walked up on a kidnapping or rape. It was crap in a car. UNLOCKED cars no less. They weren't even breaking in.

PLEASE, if you are my neighbor DO NOT SHOOT PEOPLE who rummage around in my car!

Exactly. Leaving aside the issue of what's legal in different states, the idea that it could ever be ethical to take a life over a minor property crime is just... astonishing.

 

[Wagonman]

If the kid didn't have a gun or knife the GG is wrong and going to pay retail.

Deadly force is only permitted to prevent death or GBH.

The GG should've called police given good description and stayed on the line.

Do not advance on thieves, stuff can be replaced.

It is not doing nothing if you call in the calvary.

I feel for the GG and wish him well.

 

[Evan Thomas]

GG

Wagonman, I agree with everything you wrote except this. If this is an abbreviation for "Good Guy," it seems misplaced in this instance. I feel for him as well, but "Good Guy?" No.

How does that line go? "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions..." It seems to me that acts, not intentions, define "GG" and "BG."

 

[OldMarksman]

I never said I want my neighbors to shoot. Just confront. Walk up, gun in hand, ask what the person is up to, ask if I know they are going through my stuff, and inform them police are on their way. Is that really to much to ask of a neighbor?

Why the gun? In all but very few all jurisdictions you may not use deadly force to protect property outside. Would you expect your neighbor to perform a citizen's arrest? Well, in most places citizens may not do so for suspicion of minor crimes, and they sure can't fire the gun to prevent the persons from leaving. Do you really think your neighbors would expose themselves to expensive civil suits? And simply pointing it may be unlawful unless a self defense situation exists.

Yes, that is asking too much of a neighbor. And you won't find me trying to perform a citizen's arrest because someone was going through anyone's car, including my own.

No, I'm not the sort who would "do nothing." I would call the authorities.

There's a reason for that. There's one of me. I am neither trained nor sworn to uphold the law. Where I live a policeman can exhibit a firearm without actually being in a self-defense situation (imminent threat of death or serous bodily harm) but I cannot. I am not indemnified against civil suits, and there are enough lawyers out there to come after me.

The police know what to do and are trained to do it. They will likely wait for backup before doing anything. For the citizen, there's just too much risk-risk of getting jumped, disarmed, and hurt or killed; risks of being sued for false arrest, use of excessive force, you name it; and risk of criminal prosecution, which is exactly what the shooter found out in this instance.

 

[Hondo11]

Deleted by Hondo11 so as not to hijack and turn it into a discussion about Joe Horn.

 

[DMMikey]

I lived in this town, and I think this particular neighborhood, until two years ago. (A lot of small side streets, I may have the street name confused.)
It has one of the lowest crime rates of any town of similar size in the entire country. I believe it was 3 years ago, it was rated fifth safest, two years before that, second or third.
I lived there for 15 years. In that time, I had my front door egged once on halloween when I ran out of candy, and once, some kid stole a water sprinkler from my front yard. (It was a pretty funky sprinkler, I understand the attraction. LOL)
There is no evidence that there has been any problems with vandalism. I don't buy the pent up anger argument.
It really appears to me that someone really over reacted.
A death over some junk in a car, or a car radio, is pretty tragic.
That someone will undoubtedly go to jail adds to the tragedy.
Please learn your local gun laws.
The need to retreat is very clearly delineated in NY law. I realize other parts of the country may have different rules on this, and the arguments either way can be very powerful.
The law is the law however. Just because you think it should be different doesn't mean you are going to get off.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

delete