Robert E. Lee's Decision

[Hardcase]

The New York Times, normally not one of my go-to sources for news, has been, for some time, running a daily account of the Civil War, as it happened 150 years ago.

Yesterday's story intrigued me a lot. It is about Robert E. Lee's decision to resign his commission. I was taught that, while not exactly cavalier about it, he did not give it the sort of thought that a 35-year veteran of the Army (and a General, to boot) ought to. And that bothered me - after all, this was a man who had made serving the nation his life's work. The gist of what I learned was that as the siege of Washington developed, Lee essentially said, "Huzzah, Virginia or bust!", resigned his commission and ran south to Richmond.

The NYT story is based on recent discoveries of letters from Lee's daughter and others that were written in the immediate aftermath of the war. They tell a story of a man who really was torn between his love of country, his love of state and, perhaps more important, his love of peace.

I still think that he made the wrong decision, but if what is written is true, it is more satisfying to me that he at least put much more thought into it than my high school history class would have me think.

 

[sewerman]

thanx for sharing....always admired the General for many reasons one is i'm a Virginian.

just purchased a very neat almost new paperback entitled ROBRT E.LEE on LEADERSHIP.

gives good insight on what may have motivated him in the most important decision of his life.

thanx.

S.M.

 

[ClemBert]

Consider that the vast majority of Americans way back in the day considered themselves a citizen of the state first. Being an American was often second place to the state.

In part this explains why a significant number of southerners joined the Confederate forces. To many of them they saw "their country" being invaded or not being treated equal under the constitution. The vast majority of free southerners did not own slaves and had no dog in that fight contrary to what a lot of people think. Slave owners were a very small minority of people.

Lee no doubt considered himself a Virginian first.

 

[Rachen]

The American government is truly one in a million unique. As a student of history, I have to say that the level of civility even in the face of that terrible war was unbelievable.

General Robert E. Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox in 1865. The result? He and his men were allowed to keep their sidearms and return home with honor.

In the same year, across the world, Prince Shi Dakai of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom surrendered to Qing Dynasty general Senggolinqing in Sichuan. The result: Shi Dakai and every one of his followers were beheaded and their heads carried to the Forbidden City in Beijing on spikes.

(Senggolinqing was subsequently shot dead by the Taiping sniper later that year, range estimated to be anywhere from 1000 to over 2,000 yards away. Rifle was either a Whitworth or a Enfield musket firing a specially made hollowbase target bullet.)

 

[TnRebel]

JIM DEAN : Our Civil War 150th Anniversary – The Sesquicentennial Begins
February 14, 2011 posted by Jim W. Dean · 11 Comments


Over the next four years Americans will be able to remember and teach our children the tragic events of the War Between the States, the War of Southern Independence, or Civil War as it is called. Southerners don’t like the term civil war as they were not attempting to take over the country or DC in 1861 any more than George Washington and the Continental Army sought to take over England in the 1770′s. They were seceding, physically, politically, and legally, as I will have Thomas Jefferson kindly review with us in a few minutes.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans are heading up most of the Sesqui events in their respective states. This weekend I am off to Montgomery for the parade and reenactment of Jefferson Davis’ inauguration at the Alabama capitol. BBC international radio is coming in, along with a Swiss TV station doing a documentary. Anyone in driving distance is welcome to attend this Saturday the 19th…parade at 11:00am and the capitol event at noon.

Some might ask why are were going to cover this extensively on Veterans Today. Good question.

Southerners have fought in disproportionate numbers in all of America’s wars, at times up to 70% of the ranks. Confederates were officially made American veterans by Act of Congress in the 1958, and their headstones come from the VA.

 

[Model-P]

The vast majority of free southerners did not own slaves and had no dog in that fight contrary to what a lot of people think.

A person didn't have to own a slave to be pro-slavery. I'm sure those who didn't own slaves were keenly aware of the economic advantage their South enjoyed due to slavery.

Even today there are oodles of people who are adamantly against illegal immigration who hesitate to support enforcement, knowing what would happen to food prices were it not for illegal immigrant field workers. I believe every loyal southerner did indeed have that "dog in the fight", and knew it full well.

 

[Hawg]

A person didn't have to own a slave to be pro-slavery. I'm sure those who didn't own slaves were keenly aware of the economic advantage their South enjoyed due to slavery.

I don't agree with that. Slave owners weren't even 10% of Southern population. Poor free whites were in abundance. Slaves for the most part were much better off than they were. Slave owners weren't looked upon too kindly by a lot of Southerners. To think these poor whites would go to war and risk their lives to protect slave holders rights is absurd. I'm not saying slavery wasn't part of the reason for the war because it was but it wasn't THE reason or even the main reason. The main reason was taxes levied on cotton being shipped north. That put a hurt on everybody. Poor white non slave holders included. Think about this. Was slavery any worse than forced child labor in northern factories? Kids as young as nine being forced to work 16 hour days seven days a week in textile mills?

 

[BlackPowderSmoke]

Was slavery any worse than forced child labor in northern factories? Kids as young as nine being forced to work 16 hour days seven days a week in textile mills?

Now that is a heartbreaking part of history that has been conveniently suppressed.

During the Industrial Revolution in the late 18th and 19th centuries, white children as young as 6 to 10 years old, worked 16 hours a day, 7 days a week in British and U.S. factories. If they fell asleep, from little rest and under nourishment, or were late from oversleeping, their enslavers would beat them unmercifully with iron rods. Their tiny arms; often mangled and torn, frequently caught up in the machinery, received no medical attention. When the injuries rendered them unable to perform their duties, the crippled children were turned out without treatment or compensation and left to die of their injuries. Most of these poor children didn’t live to receive any promised entitlements, as they were supposedly indentured servants.

Even after slavery was abolished, enslavement of young white children in U.S. factories continued until around 1920.

 

[SIGSHR]

There were several Confederate generals-Samuel Cooper, John Pemberton, Archibald Gracie come to mind-who "went South" in 1861 due to marrying Southern women and setlling there, George Henry Thomas stayed true to the Union due to his Northern born wife. Sherman was President of the Louisiana Military Academy 1859-1861 but warned his his Southern compatriots that they were undertaking a very hazardous, foolish and ultimately impossible enterprise.

 

[Bill Akins]

I don't like to post political here, even about the reasons for a war as long ago as the American "civil" war. I usually like to keep it just mechanical about BP guns and that way there isn't much arguments. But since other posters are talking about the civil war and it's causes, I feel justified in throwing my hat into the ring.

Here's some facts that may surprise some people. Lee only surrendered his army of northern Virginia to Grant at Appomattox. Lee was not empowered to surrender the actual Confederacy nor the Confederate government even if he had wanted to (which he did not). So....how and when did the Confederacy surrender?

It didn't. It NEVER SURRENDERED.

Jefferson Davis nor any of his cabinet never surrendered the Confederacy. The Confederacy simply ran out of the supplies to be able to continue to fight. Plus even though England and France had recognized the Confederacy as a sovereign nation, the federal government never wanted to admit that the Confederacy was a sovereign nation, so even if Davis had wanted to formally surrender, the federal government would not have accepted it because that would have been an admission by the feds that the Confederacy was a sovereign nation formally surrendering. Instead the feds wanted to keep the lie alive that the Confederacy was just a bunch of traitorous rebels.

Don't believe me fellas, check this out for yourselves, but the Confederate government never surrendered and that means we are today an occupied nation that is still technically at a state of war with the federal government. Believe it or not.

Regarding Lincoln being the "Great emancipator"..... Read Lincoln's writings about how he didn't believe black men were equal to white men and how if he could damage the south in any other way (to help the feds take away their state sovereignty and rights) he would do that and not free the slaves. He wrote how he didn't want to free the slaves, felt blacks were inferior to whites, and that he was only doing this to try to disrupt the south and that if there were any other way he wouldn't free the slaves. Look up and read Lincoln's writings, you will be amazed. So much for Mr Lincoln being the great savior of the black people.

Interestingly Lincoln only "freed" slaves that were in Confederate held states. A lot of good that did those slaves there if they tried to run, plus remember Confederate states did not abide by any federal proclamation since they were a separate nation and not bound by federal law. So it was just a "feel good" proclamation that did nothing but was hoped by Lincoln to start a black revolution in the Confederate states to disrupt it and cause injury to hopefully aid the federal aggressors to conquer the Confederacy. It did not accomplish its goal and was an abysmal failure since there was no black revolution as a result of it.

Also, there were UNION slave states. Lincoln didn't free the slaves in the UNION slave holding states. Naturally if a state would go with the union Lincoln wasn't going to alienate them by freeing THEIR slaves. Lincoln needed all the help he could get, and didn't care if some union states were slave states. What hypocrisy. Didn't teach us that one in history class did they? Lol. Lincoln only "freed" slaves in states that were actually another country that his emancipation proclamation did not have any authority over. While he allowed UNION states that were slave owning states to be exempted from his "emancipation" proclamation! Again, what hypocrisy.

But they don't teach this in our history books or classes in a FEDERALLY controlled school system where the feds dictate what books and lessons our children are taught. Still want to glorify the tyrant Lincoln? Still think he deserves his memorial in Washington D.C.? If you do, read on about how he goaded S.C. into firing on Fort Sumter so he would have an excuse to invade the south.

If anyone questions my facts, you can find them online....just not in any school books or classrooms. Unlike our classrooms and school books, at least the internet is not controlled by the federal government.....yet.

You see states had the right to VOLUNTARILY join or leave (secede) from the union. Which they did and the federal government didn't have any constitutional right to make them stay. So to have a reason to MAKE them stay in the union and rob them of their wealth, Lincoln had to create a reason to justify invading the seceded Confederate states to FORCE them to stay in the union when no valid reason existed to invade them. So......

Lincoln sent reinforcements to Fort Sumter instead of vacating it like he promised the sovereign, seceded state/nation of South Carolina's legislators he would. They told him to get his troops out of their country when S.C. left the union (which they had a right to secede if they wanted to). Lincoln promised he would remove the troops from Fort Sumter then goaded S.C. into firing on Fort Sumter when he sent three ships to SECRETLY reinforce the fort rather than vacate it. Lincoln knew the fort would fall but it gave him his reason to invade the Confederacy. But the feds didn't let that secret out to the northern people. Instead they were told the "rebels" fired on them without provocation. Which gave Lincoln his "false flag" excuse to invade the Confederacy. Of course the facts about this are now known today.....when they don't make any difference anymore.

The south seceded largely because in the north, they had an incredible influx of immigrants, especially Irish from the potato famine in Ireland. To take care of all these people who would not work for a living (sound familiar) the feds decided to place an undue export tax upon southern cotton going to France and England. Then the feds used all that money to take care of those people and the southern people got nothing from it other than having the sweat of their labor stolen from them and given to people up north. It was nothing more than a Victorian version of a "redistribution of the wealth"...."social justice", Marxist communism in Victorian times. does all this sound familiar?

It should. Because the same thing is taking place today. Only instead of just the southern cotton growing states having the fruits of their labor taken from them, today it is nation wide.

Funny how the more things change the more they stay the same.

The "civil war" over in 1865? Actually the war was not declared over by the federal government until 1866. Again, the Confederacy simply lost the materials to continue the fight but the Confederate government never surrendered.

The Confederacy is today an occupied nation ruled by an occupying foreign power that the Confederate government never surrendered to. We are still technically at a state of war even after all these years. Just most people don't realize this because the victors write the history books and propagandize our children generationally. Technically all the federal rules, regulations and anything else federal have no authority in what are conquered confederate states because they never surrendered. It's just that so long has passed that generations of children have grown up under federal propaganda telling them the civil war was all about slavery, how Mr Lincoln was a savior to the black people, and how those traitorous rebels started the war by firing on Fort Sumter without any provocation. It's all a lie. It was as it is today....all about redistribution of the wealth and might makes right. The true legitimate government of the south is still the Confederate government that simply wanted state rights and state sovereignty and not want to be federally taxed if they were not receiving any benefit from it. The feds may have defeated and occupied the Confederacy (even though it never surrendered), but these same issues are just as valid today as they were then. In times to come, we may regard the "civil war" of 1861-1866 as....round one.

Please don't ask me any questions. Google up these things for yourself and you will find I am correct. If the facts blow your mind that has been propagandized generationally by federally controlled classrooms, school books and teachers.......good, they should.


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[4V50 Gary]

I've seen the original resignation letter when it was displayed at the Virginia Historical Society.

In reading the letter, remember that Americans thought of themselves as citizens of their state first, and secondarily as citizens of the USA. Hence the struggle Lee and other southerners wrestled with. If I had been raised that way, I would have gone with my state too (unless I was older like I am now and smart enough to quickly join the Quakers).

 

[OutlawJoseyWales]

If we are lucky, the New York Times will cease to exist in my lifetime, I can only hope and pray to that end.

Most of us on this board are either historians, history majors, or at the very least-well read historically minded people. We all know how that the Lost War of Southern Independence was much more complicated than the elementary curriculum dictates to our kids. Many causes with slavery being one of them. Popular culture loves to say it was the only reason though. They have their agenda, that will change eventually also.

Thanks for posting this, I've enjoyed reading the many posts.

Most of us have read about R.E. Lee's diffucult dicisions to lead the Army of Nothern Virginia. We all wish this war would have never happened, but it did and that's that. The South is still suffering from the destruction of everything, however, it could have been much worse. Thanks to men such as Lincoln, Grant and Lee for making deals that halted even worse destruction and punishment of the South by Northern hardliners and radicals.

Thanks again for posting such a provocative line.
OJW

 

[4V50 Gary]

Speaking of the destruction, I heard that there was some research attempting to trace the path of all of Sherman's columns as they marched from Atlanta to the sea. Well, it turns out that more barns or homes were claimed burned that were actually burned. It seems that everyone wanted to be counted among the victims so they mount the soapbox and rant about that G*d d*mned Yankee general Sherman.

 

[Hawg]

Researching it is easy just fly over the area. You can still see a trail from the fire unbroken except for where construction has taken place. Everything in his path was burned that was burnable. Everything that was destroyable was destroyed.

As far as history books go all American history books have to be approved by the NAACP so they don't show blacks in a bad light.

 

[arcticap]

The Confederacy is today an occupied nation ruled by an occupying foreign power that the Confederate government never surrendered to. We are still technically at a state of war even after all these years.

There is not any technical state of war existing today.
The Confederacy was officially dissolved therefore it no longer exists.
And the act of dissolving the Confederacy officially ended the war.
So technically there is no state of war, there is no confederate nation and only one United States of America.

President Jefferson Davis met with his Confederate Cabinet for the last time on May 5, 1865, in Washington, Georgia, and the Confederate government was officially dissolved. The meeting took place at the Heard house, the Georgia Branch Bank Building, with 14 officials present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis

 

[radom]

The other fact of history that they tend to forget is that Atlanta burned before Sherman got there. I think that Stalin read a lot on the not so civil war and moved to the big time. The other thing they forget now is most of the north was pro slave as that how they got their cotton. As NY was mostly cotton mills NY city was going to sessceed from the union till the got the idea that there was a navy base in town that would burn NY to the ground.

The other thing that is not ever mentioned is most of the army in the south burned all as they retreated..so thats thats Shermans fault for bearing there.

150 years later its hard to point fingers as all where wrong then.

 

[Hawg]

The other fact of history that they tend to forget is that Atlanta burned before Sherman got there.

You need to buy a history book. Sherman was in command of the Federal forces that put Atlanta under siege. Atlanta was surrendered on Sept.2nd. Sherman made his headquarters there for two months before evacuating the citizens and burning all but 400 buildings on Nov.14th.

 

[Bill Akins]

Arcticap wrote:
There is not any technical state of war existing today.
The Confederacy was officially dissolved therefore it no longer exists.
And the act of dissolving the Confederacy officially ended the war.
So technically there is no state of war, there is no confederate nation and only one United States of America.

If you believe that Arcticap, you might change your mind after reading the below links and find them very revealing and enlightening. The facts are there, you just have to have the desire to want to find and learn them. Most importantly, a person has to have the courage to face the truth and overcome a lifetime of multiple generational federal propaganda when the epiphany of realizing that truth threatens to disrupt everything they were ever taught and believed in. That is hard to do but must be done if one seeks the truth. Or one can deny the truth and stick their head in the sand like an Ostrich and continue in federally indoctrinated denial in spite of the truth being revealed to them.

That choice is up to the individual. I made my choice when I found out the real truth some years ago. I am not a Klansman, I am not a skin head. I am not a nazi. I am not a racist. I am not a redneck. I am simply a man who recognizes the factual and historical truth that the Confederate government never formally nor officially surrendered to the federal government. Which makes all confederate states to this day to be under forcible, coerced occupation and rule by a foreign government not willingly elected by their conquered citizens of that time and further means that technically a state of war still exists even if no hostilities currently are existing and further means that the Confederate government is the true government of those states since their citizens elected the Confederate government while the federal government's occupation and rule was IMPOSED upon them by force against their will. Simply because it happened 160 years ago makes no difference.

The Confederate government never surrendering is similar to the Seminole Indian nation who didn't surrender until the 1960's and were still technically at a state of war with the federal government until that time even though no hostilities were occurring by that time.

This is an excellent link that explains the history of how and why the Confederacy never surrendered much better than I ever could. Be sure to click on the succeeding pages and read all of it. It is excellent.......
"Why the Confederacy never surrendered"
http://southernpartysw.tripod.com/id14.html

Here's another site.....
"No Surrender For The Confederate States of America".....
which the last paragraph there has this to say....."According to some sources, Davis dissolved the government at some point and there was never any discussion of surrender that amounted to anything. So that leaves the interesting question today of what you do in regard to a Confederate government that never surrendered and never quit. Davis “dissolved” the government, but is that the end? Does the Confederacy exist today in some sort of de-jure form, a form that could be resurrected? There are some today that have been exploring these possibilities. "
http://www.cakewalkblogs.com/antiestablishmenthistory/no-surrender-confederate-states-america.aspx

And another.....
"Where did the Confederacy surrender ending the American Civil War?".....
which begins its answer to that question by saying...."The Confederacy never surrendered as such."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_Confederacy_surrender_ending_the_American_Civil_War


And another that explains that the Confederate government never surrendered.....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/James_Everett/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066_84780037.html


Yet another....
http://sonoftheoccupiedsouth.blogspot.com/2010/06/confederacy-still-exists.html

Still another....
http://nowewont.ning.com/profiles/blogs/constitutional-court-of-the

Still another site where the last two sentences state...."It should be noted that the Confederate States of America were never formally surrendered. While the States, Armies, forts, and some of the warships of the Confederacy surrendered over a period of time, and the President of the Confederate States captured and made a prisoner-of-war, at no time was the Confederacy surrendered."
http://home.freeuk.com/gazkhan/surrenders.htm

Yet another that states...."There was no treaty that officially ended the Civil War - the individual armys surrendered and the Confederacy faded away. Yes, the surrender of Lee's army made Confederacy victory impossible, but there was no official end to the War."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071127165916AA27dvc

And another one that states....."There is no existing document that legally ended the War for Southern Independence, or disolved the Confederacy."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090203122659AA0HxM2

Still another site that states...." The Government of the Confederate States of America never officially surrendered to the Federal Union and thus still exists as an occupied government under the control of the Federal Union (UNITED STATES, INC.) in the Southern States of America including: Arkansas, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, No. Carolina, So. Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia and within the Territory of Arizona and the provisional Territories including Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas, Maryland, Montana, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Wyoming."
http://missouriconfederatestateofamerica.com/default.aspx

Another one that states...."But there never was a formal surrender by the Confederate Government. Neither treaty nor truce was ever called."
and...."President Jefferson Davis refused to surrender the Confederacy, instead seeking to consolidate his forces West of the Mississippi. He was of the hope that they could establish the Confederacy in Texas. This was a misguided hope at best. Davis was captured in May enroute to Texas. He was then imprisoned under unduly harsh conditions and emerged a physically broken man. But he never signed the Loyalty Oath and never formally surrendered his government." and....."The fact that the War Between the States was never properly adjudicated, and the subsequent lack of any formal Instrument of Surrender being tendered, has left a hollowness in the "peace" that is often cited as an end to hostilities. The Union did, however, have the last word. In May of 1866, President Andrew Johnson simply proclaimed the War to be at an end. Sadly, vestiges of that war remain unresolved to this very day. And the chief culprit of this "hollowness" in our national unity is, in my opinion, directly attributable to the lack of a formal ending of the hostilities."
http://robertwilliamsofbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2010/04/surrender-at-appomattox-beginning-of.html


I could go on and on with more sites and historical facts proving that the Confederate government never formally officially surrendered to the federal government. But as I have listed multiple sites that says it did not surrender, I think it would be easier Arcticap if you just posted a link to a site that shows the formal surrender document where the Confederate government officially surrendered to the federal government.





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[Hawg]

This thread will be going into lock down soon.

 

[sewerman]

very true about the child worker.

in fact the industrial revolution set into motion the mass legal slavery in england thru debt of probably millions of children who were condemed to work house to pay off family debt or as cast ways because their family couldn't feel them. the industrilist soon saw the need for cheap labor & exploited the workhouse residents. the influence of child labor was exploited in every 19th century industrial nation.
i would't be too surprised if the system wasn't supported behind the scenes thru corrupt judges just as the small amount of incidents of private jail abuse during the 21st century has happened here in the u.s....but that's another topic.

slaverly topic is probably one of the most least unsderstood & volitile topics to discuss. i'm reading a book now only one printing 1929 called life & labor of the old south by ulrich H. phillips. the old books are so much clearer & full of facts that the newer printings don't have due to political correctness.

from reading i've learned that slaverly was indeed on it's last legs , death thrones if you will, and by 1850 the influx of immigrant labor mostly in the north with smaller numbers in the south was showing how cost prohibitive the slave institution was .

the day labor in the north out worked the slave by at least 1/3 more production & was only a burden on the empolyer for his daily wage.

the slave was most times owned for life, needed medical, food, clothing, lodging, & supervision yet still only produced at best 2/3rds of a comparable immirgrant worker. the cost to even the small planter was more than what he could afford and many were in debt living from one harvest to another.

the later habit of the larger planters of leasing out slaves to smaller farms or plantations became a part of the normal work force with the only stipulations requesting the slave be returned for one week a year usually christmas time.

one observer stated one occasion he wittnessed the use of irish immirgrant workers to dig a canal linking to a river used for commerence and the use of slaves was forbidden!! they had become such an expensive item owners were unwilling to risk their injury or death due to replacement cost... so the day laborer was infinitely cheaper.

also the import of slaves had been federally out lawed in the 1840s with very few smuggled in after the law was in place. as demand for slaves increased due to growth, the south was forced to deal with the need with what was available form natural re-population. so supply and demand ran up prices....yet for years during the stablized cotton era a slave's worth was based on the prices of cotton...cotton selling for 12 cents a pound put a good quality field hand's worth at $1200.00! an exorbitant amount when most people worked for 1 or 2 dollars a day!!! in 1864 a quality field hand was selling for 2-4K!

and touching upon the state sovereign idea... fealty & allegiance to one's state should ALWAYS be over federal. the PEOPLE in the states created the federal to serve them today it has been reversed!

this gets very complicated with too little space but the 14th amendment pretty much along with some very slick unwritten oaths that we enter into in ignorance have made everyone citizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, which is a corporation and NOT a country..the united states..... is the country!

s.m.