Road rage shooting - both drivers claim self-defense
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
- Start date
Beentown71
New member
Thanks for bringing up this incident. I used to be the guy who hops out of the vehicle to "make" things right. Making things right in my own mind anyway. 20 years later I know better but it is good to have a reminder every now and then.
Beentown
Beentown
Last edited:
Glenn Bartley
New member
Oh, I agree with that as far as road rage or anything like that goes. I was only talking abut during an actual shooting. In road rage, best to jsut keep driving and in an opposite direction from the other guy.
All the best,
GB
I admit, your comment made me think - "what is the best thing to do if 2-3 armed and experienced thugs are able to box your car in in a bad part of town"? Do you get out? If you do, what cover is available? I'm not quite sure what I'd do - I'd still be inclined to stay in my car, though I don't know if this is the best reaction. Depends on the circumstances, I suppose.
The only military training I've had...
... with regard to vehicular incidents...
... has assumed vehicles disabled by IED.
In both the courses I attended, though, getting out of a disabled vehicle was considered critical.
Are there any instructors out there who actually advocate staying in a boxed-in or disabled vehicle, if shooting seems at all likely?
... with regard to vehicular incidents...
... has assumed vehicles disabled by IED.
In both the courses I attended, though, getting out of a disabled vehicle was considered critical.
Are there any instructors out there who actually advocate staying in a boxed-in or disabled vehicle, if shooting seems at all likely?
Willie Lowman
New member
Does not compute... How can someone claim self defense if they have been shot in the head and are now deceased?
TailGator...
... those are two good reasons, yes. It's hard to engage effectively from inside a vehicle.
A third reason is that you are a relatively stationary target, in a box of unarmored metal and glass. Most handgun rounds considered suitable for defense will have little trouble getting through a car door or side window. If the vehicle isn't moving, the driver's position is very vulnerable.
If the vehicle can move, then it's a good idea to get it out of the threat zone.
I don't know if the Mustang was effectively pinned in. If it was, then getting out of the car may have been a reasonable response. If it wasn't, the 21yo should have used its agility to get out of the area.
But from the way things read, the 40yo in the truck initiated hostilities, and then chose to re-engage. If so, then he deserves any and all charges leveled.
... those are two good reasons, yes. It's hard to engage effectively from inside a vehicle.
A third reason is that you are a relatively stationary target, in a box of unarmored metal and glass. Most handgun rounds considered suitable for defense will have little trouble getting through a car door or side window. If the vehicle isn't moving, the driver's position is very vulnerable.
If the vehicle can move, then it's a good idea to get it out of the threat zone.
I don't know if the Mustang was effectively pinned in. If it was, then getting out of the car may have been a reasonable response. If it wasn't, the 21yo should have used its agility to get out of the area.
But from the way things read, the 40yo in the truck initiated hostilities, and then chose to re-engage. If so, then he deserves any and all charges leveled.
Stevie-Ray
New member
I'd get on the horn, dial police and say "A guy just pulled a gun on me. He's in a <enter vehicle>, license #whatever, going south on.....etc."
Sheesh, what a couple boneheads!
Just spent the last 2 weeks at my northern property. Almost heaven, even though the driving is far longer for everything. Nice when the only thing that comes close to ticking you off, is a slow truck. Even that doesn't bother me though, since that is a sensible truck driver. Smiles from people that don't know you, even waves or nods, rather than the Detroiter single-digit salute.
Eventually, I always have to come home, though. Through Detroit.
Yeah, Stevie-Ray, good point.
Many people may not realize a full size pickup truck weighs in at about 3 to 4
tons. I'm lucky in that mine has 4-wheel disc brakes, many don't.
Unlike new cars which weigh in at under 1800lbs, they can't handle or stop
as quickly as most cars, and the responsible, experienced driver HAS to take the
limits of a vehicle like this into consideration, as well as attempt to
compensate for all those insensitive,selfish, brainless boneheads in smaller
vehicles who insist on driving like mindless cretins on their way to the local
convenience store in a rush because they think they're slick...
Many people may not realize a full size pickup truck weighs in at about 3 to 4
tons. I'm lucky in that mine has 4-wheel disc brakes, many don't.
Unlike new cars which weigh in at under 1800lbs, they can't handle or stop
as quickly as most cars, and the responsible, experienced driver HAS to take the
limits of a vehicle like this into consideration, as well as attempt to
compensate for all those insensitive,selfish, brainless boneheads in smaller
vehicles who insist on driving like mindless cretins on their way to the local
convenience store in a rush because they think they're slick...
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
therewolf said:
There's virtually not a car in the world that weighs 1,800 pounds... most are at least 2,500, very often over 3,000.... and a fairly large truck, like a Dadge Ram 1500 Laramie, only weighs about 5,500 pounds.
A Lotus Elise, which is one of the lightest cars in America, weighs 2,050 pounds.... a Toyota Prius is over 2,900 pounds.
PK...
... only 5,500lbs isn't far short of 3 tons, and that was for a 1500 series.
Now make it a 250/2500 or 350/3500 (depending if you like Ford, or Chevy/Dodge numbering), and the weights probably fall within the "3 or 4 tons" estimate, especially for dually or heavy tow package trucks.
A Mustang isn't about to move my Avalanche out of the way, if they start out in full contact, at a stop. It may have the horsepower, but it won't have the weight to keep the tires in contact.
Again, I don't know if the Mustang was pinned in for the initial confrontation; I'm just saying it is feasible for a large truck to pin in a sports car.
... only 5,500lbs isn't far short of 3 tons, and that was for a 1500 series.
Now make it a 250/2500 or 350/3500 (depending if you like Ford, or Chevy/Dodge numbering), and the weights probably fall within the "3 or 4 tons" estimate, especially for dually or heavy tow package trucks.
A Mustang isn't about to move my Avalanche out of the way, if they start out in full contact, at a stop. It may have the horsepower, but it won't have the weight to keep the tires in contact.
Again, I don't know if the Mustang was pinned in for the initial confrontation; I'm just saying it is feasible for a large truck to pin in a sports car.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
MLeake said:
It is, yes, but the weight difference is likely to be closer 1,500 pounds than the nearly 6,500 suggested. Many cars weigh well over 3,000 pounds and many trucks are under 5,000.
Fact is, all I've seen for a description is "chevy truck". Chevy makes truck that weigh as little as 3,300 pounds (Colorado) and a Ford Mustang can weigh as much as 3,500 pounds.
Regardless, virtually any vehicle could trap a car. If it couldn't go backwards it would be pretty easy for most any other car to stop it from going forwards. It would be two wheels with traction against 4 wheels with brakes on. The most that would happen is the two wheels would spin, I hope a Mustang could spin at least, but some cars couldn't even do that.
The guy commited murder.That's all there is to it.
He shot the other driver to kill(in the head) and had no self defense reasoning,other than the moment he had the gun pulled on him.After that he had the opportunity to leave.
He came back and commited vehicular assault and then killed him..He is done for.. prison inmate for life..
My .02 worth
He shot the other driver to kill(in the head) and had no self defense reasoning,other than the moment he had the gun pulled on him.After that he had the opportunity to leave.
He came back and commited vehicular assault and then killed him..He is done for.. prison inmate for life..
My .02 worth
Catfishman
New member
I say getting out of the car is a bad move.
I cite the dead man as evidence.
BTW - my Dodge weighs 6650 lbs. Half ton trucks are much bigger and heavier than they used to be.
I think the shooter is guilty of something. But not murder, maybe not manslaughter. The Mustang driver pointed a gun at him. This is why you never brandish a weapon. It may force you to use it or it may get you killed, killed justifiably at that.
After having a gun pointed at him the Chevy driver got in his truck and rammed the car. What should he have done? Driven away?
Yes he should have, but he would have been exposing himself to the risk of being shot in the back by a man who was pointing a gun at him seconds before. Ramming the car was wrong, but not completely unreasonable considering the Mustang drivers actions.
The shooting could be easy to defend. Everyone agrees the Mustang driver pointed the gun at him the first time they got out. The second time the gun isn't mentioned. I would imagine the shooter is going to say the Mustang driver was holding it. And in his defense, wouldn't it be strange if he didn't have his gun in his hand the second time?
Both of these guys escalated the situation. We've got use our heads and not let pride and testoterene dictate our actions.
I cite the dead man as evidence.
BTW - my Dodge weighs 6650 lbs. Half ton trucks are much bigger and heavier than they used to be.
I think the shooter is guilty of something. But not murder, maybe not manslaughter. The Mustang driver pointed a gun at him. This is why you never brandish a weapon. It may force you to use it or it may get you killed, killed justifiably at that.
After having a gun pointed at him the Chevy driver got in his truck and rammed the car. What should he have done? Driven away?
Yes he should have, but he would have been exposing himself to the risk of being shot in the back by a man who was pointing a gun at him seconds before. Ramming the car was wrong, but not completely unreasonable considering the Mustang drivers actions.
The shooting could be easy to defend. Everyone agrees the Mustang driver pointed the gun at him the first time they got out. The second time the gun isn't mentioned. I would imagine the shooter is going to say the Mustang driver was holding it. And in his defense, wouldn't it be strange if he didn't have his gun in his hand the second time?
Both of these guys escalated the situation. We've got use our heads and not let pride and testoterene dictate our actions.
A SD defense will be hard to sell but a slick lawyer might pull it off. A guy here killed three people in '09 and they just aquitted him of all charges. He did it and everyone knows it but fancy lawyers can pull alot of tricks.
As far as the vehicle situation:
Ton trucks with diesel engines can approach 10,000 pounds. They can easily have 750 horsepower and out accelerate Vipers, Corvettes, and Mustangs. A Mustang is no match for that. That is, admittedly, the upper end of the spectrum but is not at all uncommon. Even a four wheel drive half ton could muscle a Mustang around with ease.
As far as the vehicle situation:
Ton trucks with diesel engines can approach 10,000 pounds. They can easily have 750 horsepower and out accelerate Vipers, Corvettes, and Mustangs. A Mustang is no match for that. That is, admittedly, the upper end of the spectrum but is not at all uncommon. Even a four wheel drive half ton could muscle a Mustang around with ease.
"Ton trucks with diesel engines can approach 10,000 pounds. They can easily have 750 horsepower and out accelerate Vipers, Corvettes, and Mustangs. A Mustang is no match for that. That is, admittedly, the upper end of the spectrum but is not at all uncommon. Even a four wheel drive half ton could muscle a Mustang around with ease."
Ben, do you have ANY proof of the above statement? A road test showing an off-the-floor truck beating a Mustang V8 or Viper or Corvette in ANY kind of speed test? It's ridiculous. Diesel engines in trucks are designed for torque, not horsepower; they're made to haul heavy objects, not drag race sports cars ... they would certain be able to PUSH a Mustang around, but outrun it? Not a prayer. And if there's an off-the-floor pickup of ANY kind with a 750hp Diesel engine, I'll eat my 1911 ... maybe a tractor, but not a common-use truck ... does not compute ...
Ben, do you have ANY proof of the above statement? A road test showing an off-the-floor truck beating a Mustang V8 or Viper or Corvette in ANY kind of speed test? It's ridiculous. Diesel engines in trucks are designed for torque, not horsepower; they're made to haul heavy objects, not drag race sports cars ... they would certain be able to PUSH a Mustang around, but outrun it? Not a prayer. And if there's an off-the-floor pickup of ANY kind with a 750hp Diesel engine, I'll eat my 1911 ... maybe a tractor, but not a common-use truck ... does not compute ...