Risking life and limb for sheeple...

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I guess how I would react would depend on the events and where I was at the time. There can not be a hard and fast rule when one would react with force.

What do you do if you hear shots, look around and see a scruffy looking male holding a well dressed man at gun point? Do you assume the Scruff is the BG while the WD is the good guy. Could it be that Scruff is an undercover copper and WD just escaped from a court room where he had shot his ex-wife during a divorce.

What are your actions if you were in a park and saw an adult male walk up to several children playing, grab a child's arm and start pulling the kid out of the park. The child is crying and yelling, you can hear that but not what was being said. Do you assume that it is an abduction and inervene? Could it be that a father had been looking for his kid who was supposed to have been home 3 hours before and found the kid in the park? No kidnapping, just an PO'ed father trying to get his kid home.

If I were in a public place and saw somebody pull out a weapon and attack several people, I would take action to preserve the innocent.

Ottergal protecting her class would be an act of bravery but it is not the same as intervening between strangers. She knows those kids. The other teachers in her school that would let the kids be hurt are below contempt, there is an implied promise made by the teachers and school that the students would be safe.


For what it is worth.



------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
OK, here's a scenario for you.

You come around a corner, and you see a "cop" talking to one of a few guys, when all of a sudden one of them jumps the cop. The other two immediately join in chorus.

You're fairly close to the cruiser, and have the opportunity to call for assist. You're also armed.

What are you going to do?

1. Call the "cops"? Just radio for help, and bail out, having done your civic duty?

2. Play "cowboy", and draw down on the BG's?

3. Duck around the corner, and keep walking?

Let your conscience be your guide. Answer honestly though, Christmas is right around the corner...

Best Regards,
Don



------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
-----------------
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

John F. Kennedy
 
Glamdring...people are honored daily for acts of heroism.... proffesionals....as well as civilians. The natural disaster thing, is more like a common enemy that has affected scores of people.
Confronting goblins, is an up close and personal thing that most people cannot understand.Why would a logical person put themselves in harms way....risk life...limb...or more for a total stranger. Isn't that what cops do? To serve and protect. Thats...what I think most people would say. Leave it to the paid professionals.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've achieved surpise and have said rapist at gunpoint. Rape has stopped. Woman pulls a pencil out of her pocket and sticks it into the rapist's ear and scramble's it around. Hmm.[/quote]

A woman who almost been raped doesn't have the prescence of mind, the muscle control or probably the tactical knowledge to pull off this rather complex manoever.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I slipped past the lookouts for the rapist and while I've got him at gunpoint, the lookout (trying to redeem his honor) slips up behind me and cuts my throat. I'm dead, and the woman gets raped some more.[/quote]

Well, off-hand, if you've ID'd the lookout and you still 'slip past him', then you don't have the tactical knowledge or the common sense to be let loose in public with a firearm.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Let's change our tack a bit here. Let's take the baby falling off the raft and drowning example. No shooting, no maiming, nice and clean. You jump in, pull the baby out of the water, but you're too late the baby has drowned. Parents are the Ramsies(sp?), and decide to sue your keester off because you took the time to get your shoes off and and stash your wallet in them before you jumped in to do your duty to mankind. How does being broke (and worse, giving your money to the Ramsies) help your family? And before you start calling me a cold hearted ogre, I would've jumped in to save the kid.[/quote]

Research your states Good Samaritan Laws. You might be a wee bit surprised.

LawDog
 
I agree with Otter but it's not exactly the same question. Much like a cop has different responsibilities than the average citizen, a teacher has different responsibilities to his class than the average citizen has to a bunch of kids. The teacher is acting as a parent to the kids while they're with him. He is obligated to do what he can, even if it gets him killed. So I will. But in public, two strangers going at it? That's a phone call, I think. Maybe when I finish my defensive class I'll have a clearer perspective, but for now I don't think I owe them anything.
After all, WE have managed to think of all these reasons for strangers not to intervene, so why can't they do the same and simply recognize that they'll have to take steps to defend themselves?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr.X:
Glamdring...people are honored daily for acts of heroism.... proffesionals....as well as civilians. The natural disaster thing, is more like a common enemy that has affected scores of people.
Confronting goblins, is an up close and personal thing that most people cannot understand.Why would a logical person put themselves in harms way....risk life...limb...or more for a total stranger. Isn't that what cops do? To serve and protect. Thats...what I think most people would say. Leave it to the paid professionals.
[/quote]
Well people get awards and etc for stuff all the time some deserve some are given to make public feel better or for political reasons [ie CYA or smoke screen]. I don't think society rewards or encourages the things that make life better.
I think that is the logical reason for self sacrifice. Risking life and limb to stop an assault to the benifit of society is more logical to me than doing the same in war. War is usually a poor choice IMO and the people actually killing each other would actually make peace quickly most of the time if allowed to [consider the X mas event durning WW I].
And no Cops don't have to risk life and limb [legally or ethically anyway, morally is a different question].
And this isn't meant as a flame against cops but the ones in my area are not well trained as a whole when it comes to weapons, tactics, or even basic safety. I suspect I have more experiance protecting people than most local cops. Since a cop doesn't usually protect, in the direct sense, people...it isn't really his/her job. They are not bodyguards.
 
Lawdog

Respectfully, I believe you're wrong. There are several reported cases of women killing their attackers with a weapon they had obtained during the assault (one in New Orleans comes immediately to mind). From my experience with survivors (I have the dubious honor of being someone that survivors feel they open up to), they were well aware of what was going on before, during, and after the assault and were functional at all times. Proof of this awareness comes from the fact that women often make a choice: fight and try to get away or submit and survive. I don't agree with the second option, but I do know that my friends made conscious decisions at all times relevant to the assault.

As for the original question, Ayoob puts it best. You have the right to walk away and not get involved, but then you have to look at yourself every day in the mirror and see the face of a gutless coward who let an innocent be harmed when he had the power to do something about it.

Personally, I don't have a choice. If I see something like this going down, I'll draw enough attention to the problem by yelling for 911 and hopefully driving the attacker off (and deterring backups from making their presence known). If necessary, I'll take direct action. I will NOT walk away. In all honesty, if I found out that someone walked away and left my mother/sister/girlfriend to be assaulted, that would probably be the next person I'd go after, following the attacker.

I look at it this way. I'm willing to die for my family and loved ones. I'm willing to die to protect your family and loved ones. Are you willing to do the same?
 
Anyone, given time and creativity, can come up with a scenario that a prudent person should not physically undertake.

However, something should ALWAYS be done. It does not have to be physical interaction. It may be calling 911. It may be shouting, "stop!" It may be becoming physically involved. It may be the use of a weapon. Etc, etc. The point is, there is always something to be done.

Those who do nothing, and there are many out there, deserve contempt.
 
Some people would condition their involvement on thether or not the victimis a friendly (help), neutral (help) or an enemy (walk away or help the attacker). Seems reasonable to me, if not always legal (the helping part).

I know for a fact that, should I ever see a known NKVD equivalent in trouble, I'd happily go on my way. Seeing a neighbor, or a cop I know personally and like, or a stranger not obviously affiliated with any known enemy organization would certainly merit involvement.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Respectfully, I believe you're wrong. There are several reported cases of women killing their attackers with a weapon they had obtained during the assault (one in New Orleans comes immediately to mind).[/quote]

You're quite correct.

However, the situation was posited as the woman killing her attacker in the moments after she was rescued by a third party.

I don't have any stats to back up my position, but I don't think that happens too often.

LawDog
 
Lawdog

You don't have any stats to back up your position? How DARE you present a position without facts! I can't believe that anyone would ever do that here. The sheer audacity of it.

As pennance, please provide one story from the LawDog files per day, beginning now. :)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Donny:
OK, here's a scenario for you.

You come around a corner, and you see a "cop" talking to one of a few guys, when all of a sudden one of them jumps the cop. The other two immediately join in chorus.

You're fairly close to the cruiser, and have the opportunity to call for assist. You're also armed.

What are you going to do?

1. Call the "cops"? Just radio for help, and bail out, having done your civic duty?

2. Play "cowboy", and draw down on the BG's?

3. Duck around the corner, and keep walking?

Let your conscience be your guide. Answer honestly though, Christmas is right around the corner...

Best Regards,
Don
[/quote]

Given this exact scenario, I'd have to go with Door Number Two. "What if" games are awfully tough, though. What if the cop was an imposter, and the BGs plaincloths? What if the cop was real, but the BGs were IAD busting him on drug charges? What if I had somehow walked into the middle of a movie set? What if... ?


------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
 
It appears that if you're LEO, you're a screwed pooch.

Just tried to pose a test of response. Oh well.

Best Regards,
Don

------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
-----------------
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.

John F. Kennedy
 
Don -
Nope. I might be the one screwed, if any of the other "what ifs" entered in, but I'll stick with #2. (Although I think the phrase "Play 'cowboy'" is bit uncharitable.)

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
 
Close enough to 100K. If someone wants to start Part II, cool... but knock off the "cowards vs cowboys" bovine exhaust, umkay?
 
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