Risking life and limb for sheeple...

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Glamdring

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or other people you don't know.

Just wondering, I think that a person's choice to intervene directly and risk their life to help a stranger is if not heroic at least close to being so. And what I learned when I studied philosophy is that one can not condem people for not doing heroic deeds.

Not sure if I am being clear. An example would be if you saw someone being mugged...you WOULD be obligated to call police and/or testify and should be censured if you don't. But I would not expect someone to intervene directly or censure them for not doing so.
 
As long as there are civil suits based on justified shootings, when even after the good guy/ gal is cleared criminally but still loses their house then no, there should be no legal censure for not acting. Deadly force is not an option unless it is blatant- rape in progress, the Reginald Denny episode.

Calling the police, absolutely. Vocalizing, yes.

I don't know, I get sick when I think about the french lady going home thinking we are all a bunch of animals over here. Most are not, but who would know? MAybe they (Central Park should all be hunted down and victimized also.

[This message has been edited by hube1236 (edited July 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by hube1236 (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just wondering, I think that a person's choice to intervene directly and risk their life to help a stranger is if not heroic at least close to being so.[/quote]

From the American Heritage Dictionary: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
"he·ro (hîr)
2)A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life"[/quote]

So heroic equals nobility of purpose combined with courage.

The opposite of being heroic is to be ignoble and cowardly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> And what I learned when I studied philosophy is that one can not condem people for not doing heroic deeds.[/quote]

Cicero noted that there is nothing so absurd but that some philosopher has said it. Your philosophy class might be a good starting place but not, I hope, an ending place.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Not sure if I am being clear. An example would be if you saw someone being mugged...you WOULD be obligated to call police and/or testify and should be censured if you don't. But I would not expect someone to intervene directly or censure them for not doing so.[/quote]

If we can laud a hero for being noble and courageous, we can certainly heap calumnies upon cowards for being mean, low, and ignoble.

That someone with the means to prevent harm to another human being would instead slink away is despicable.

If these words offend, plan to behave in such a manner that they won't apply to you. Or wear your shame like the badge of dishonor that it is.

pax

"I'm very brave generally, he went on in a low voice: only today I happen to have a headache." -- Lewis Carroll
 
There is no legal censure for not acting, nor should there be. The decision to intervene is a personal one.

Personally, I would feel like dookie if I knew someone had been raped or killed, and I had the means to stop it and did nothing. I once put on a uniform and swore to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic -- even if I had to do it with an M-16 (or, as it turned out, with a Hawk missile). Though I'm out of the service now, I still believe in that concept, and what is the Constitution but the written version of our right to not be harmed by the bad guys? What are rapists, murderers and theives but "domestic enemies?"

I know and support Florida's laws on the use of deadly force. They are consistent with this concept; in the last extreme, you can use deadly force to defend another innocent person from violent crimes such as rape, kidnapping and armed assault.
 
You often hear about people who do nothing. They fail to intervene. They fail to help the police. They fail to take any responsibility for their inactions.

I refuse to be catogorize myself with the above. I have to live with myself, after all.

(This doesn't mean I'll carelessly throw my life away- but I'll do something to help, at least.)
 
A few years ago, a young woman here in Colorado Springs was violently abducted from her apartment building's parking lot. She was found raped, stabbed, and strangled six hours later.

Although she put up a hell of a struggle and made more noise than a catamount in heat, no one came to her aid. Plenty of witnesses, though. :rolleyes:

If I lived in that building, I couldn't live with myself knowing I could have at least made an attempt to beat off her attackers (yes, there were two), but didn't.
 
If you see it going down...determine if deadly force is neccesary. If not-brain them with a brick [seems to work well for the BG's in New York]]. If so shoot and either walk away [[The victim of the assault being so distraught is not likely going to be able to identify you, nor is the BG since he is a corpse.]] or take your chance of losing everything because the BG's family thinks their son was justified in rape, robbery or murder.

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Satanta, the Whitebear
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This kind of thinking is what gets people hurt...or worse.You come around a corner and two dudes are punching each others lights out.Which one are you gonna help? The one that is winning...or the one who is loosing? Do you know what they are fighting about? Maybe they are two BG's in a dispute about some drugs? Gonna go up to them...tap them on the shoulder and and say.."Excuse me gents...can I render some assistance?" If you nosey Neds must....dial 911 and call the cops....no need to wade in and start blasting just cause you have some little card that says you can pack heat...coupled with some kind of Sir Lancelot syndrome. If you want to save the world....or a small corner of it...join the Peace Corps....or some local civilian do gooder organization.....they need volunteers all the time....
As for the rest of you " Gosh I'd like to stop a rape in progress...cause its heroic...and my life is pretty boring....and this would boost my self esteem..cause I once took a Philosophy 101 course in college....and I am tired of shooting pop bottles full of water...and wanna see them Hydro Shoks...in action...close up!" Dreanm/Fantasy crowd....be careful what you wish for......
 
MR.X...I truly hope most or none of us is walking around hoping to cap someone. I doubt we are.

A couple of guys duking it out in an alley isn't what I personally consider 'lethal threat' enough to personally intervene.

However-a guy with a knife sticking it into some kids guts-drug dealers or not. That's something I would definatly feel calls for action. Call the cops? Hell yes. But standing by while someone is raped, beaten or murdered can not be justified. How fast is the police response time in your area?

I personally hope I never walk up to some woman being brutalized and I don't have some internal need to put holes in another human. I will not however be either unprepared to stop a situation or unwilling to intervene. That's my own POV. You have the right to do as you see fit.

Who has the sig that goes:
Your silence isn't golden...it's piss yellow.?

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Satanta, the Whitebear
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Have you ground enough edge on that ax yet, Mr. X? You obviously have no idea of the realities of concealed carry. In fact, from the tone of your message, I'd wager you've never been any closer to a handgun than the 10th row of the theater watching "Lethal Weapon".

I thought it was clear that the idea is to follow the well established laws governing use of deadly force. Your guys-brawling-in-the-alley scenario doesn't qualify. A definite no-shoot. Before you put hand to weapon you must know the whole situation and be sure it meets the legal tests. You make the arrogant presumption that CCW holders are going to jump in and start blasting away, a presumption that has not been proven true in real life.

As for your second paragraph, don't pretend to know other people's thoughts. Or are you projecting your own fantasies on us? All that did come out of your head, perhaps in a Freudian slip. If this is the way you think, there's no way you should ever touch a weapon.

You sound like the people here in Florida who predicted that the "shall issue" permit law would lead to gun battles over parking spaces and Little League games. Never happened. In fact, the percentage of permit holders who commit felonies is lower than the percentage of the genral population.

BTW, you shouldn't use pop bottles full of water as targets. Flying glass is dangerous, as are glass shards lying on the ground. It's also not environmentally sound. Recycle the bottles, and shoot paper targets (also recyclable).
 
Satanta,

;)

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
I like the "sheeple" twist to the argument. I have to wonder if I saw someone who was known to be a loud, ignorant, PITA getting drug into an alley if I'd go to his aid. I don't know. How about you?

What if it were Janet Reno?
Bill Clinton?
Ricky Martin?
Anybody on the "Truth" anti-smoking commercials?
 
Mikul....I study Native American History and Art. Something one of the Generals from that area said about the Indians held on a reservation during a severe Winter with no food and no hunting was allowed, seems to come to mind about the Fed.Gov peoples you mentioned.

"Let them eat GRASS!

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Satanta, the Whitebear
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Interesting point. However things may not always be what they seem. There was an incident a few years ago, where a truck driver from out of state was delivering something in NYC. He saw a woman struggling with a man and went to her aid, with his .45 auto in hand. Turns out it was a vice cop making a bust, and he got more jail time than the hooker he tried to save.
Another incident. A pier with a raft attached, stairway leading to the raft. Family sunbathing with 9 month old child on raft. Child falls into water. Another person sees the child fall into the water. He does nothing. Child drowns. Is he liable? No. You are not obligated to save someone, including that young child. Would I jump in after the kid? Hell yes!
It all depends on the circumstances as to whether or not to get involved. I'd probably do the same as the truck driver did, but I'd also hope that the cop would be man enough not to bust me after he identified himself.
Of course, I stay out of areas where that might happen, but you never know. All I can say is "Be carefull."
Paul B.
 
I must live a life I am happy to live. I must follow "right action", as I understand it. I am in a hurry to cause injury to none, but I cannot stand idly by when people are raped (which I hope is clear-cut enough for the rare doltish member here), or being beaten to death. If one does not understand legal justification for lethal force, one should not carry (potentially) lethal weaponry; much like, if one does not understand how to converse with adults, one should not join an adult forum, such as this.
 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to return Mr. X's favor and back him up.

Since we're talking rape here...

I've achieved surpise and have said rapist at gunpoint. Rape has stopped. Woman pulls a pencil out of her pocket and sticks it into the rapist's ear and scramble's it around. Hmm. Or, I slipped past the lookouts for the rapist and while I've got him at gunpoint, the lookout (trying to redeem his honor) slips up behind me and cuts my throat. I'm dead, and the woman gets raped some more. Now throw this into the twist. Homosexual rape. I live in a city with a significant gay population, so I now see two guys rolling around on the ground. And since homosexual rape tends to also be a gang rape, I'm now outnumbered. Back to the scrambling of the brain by the victim, or me getting my throat cut.

This is what I will do...Find a pay phone and call the police. I do my family no good whatsoever in the hospital, jail, bankrupcy, or the morgue. How can I protect my family from jail? How can I provide for my family when I'm bankrupt? I have to be prepared to spend money I do not have to defend myself in court and the following civil lawsuit when I end up defending myself by shooting!!! Why should I make it easier for a court system to jail, or bankrupt me because of my goodwill towards man? This all presumes that I didn't end up in the emergency room with, and have to pay off, that bill for the rest of my life. This also presumes that I didn't end up with a crippling injury and it's fallout (rehab, will I be able to work again, will I be a burden to my family, etc.). But most importantly, this presumes I was RIGHT in my assesment of the situation that I knew nothing about when I walked up on it. All of the above problems are compounded to a degree I can't even calculate if I was WRONG. And to bring this full circle, not one second of getting physically involved in the imagined event does anything to help myself or my family.

If people are not willing to take even the simplest measures to protect themselves, why should they count on someone else to save them.

Let's change our tack a bit here. Let's take the baby falling off the raft and drowning example. No shooting, no maiming, nice and clean. You jump in, pull the baby out of the water, but you're too late the baby has drowned. Parents are the Ramsies(sp?), and decide to sue your keester off because you took the time to get your shoes off and and stash your wallet in them before you jumped in to do your duty to mankind. How does being broke (and worse, giving your money to the Ramsies) help your family? And before you start calling me a cold hearted ogre, I would've jumped in to save the kid.

But there's a big difference between saving a drowning child, helping someone after a car wreck, and shuckin' out your heater during the Quik Trip robbery. There are plenty of times to risk your life as you wander about your day (try driving in rush hours traffic), why increase the odds of another fatherless/motherless child by getting involved in a slapfight between a man and a woman at a gas station.

In the end, the grass eaters are on their own.

Please forgive any spelling mistakes.

EAF
 
Glamdring and I have had this discussion before... ;)

As many of you know, I am a teacher. This subject came up when the first well publicized school shooting happened in the city I teach in. I had several people ask me what I would do in that situation: would I save my own skin or do whatever it takes to save the lives of the children. I didn't hesitate to answer (and at the time had never even given any thought to the scenario). I would do whatever it takes to keep "my kids" safe...even if it meant sacrificing my life. My views have not changed over 13 years of teaching, even thought the violence in my school has gotten worse. Do I want to be called a hero, or a martyr? Absolutely not. But I feel that part of teaching is protecting children...they are my responsibility while they are on the school grounds. Not all people, including teachers, agree with me. I have taken a lot of heat from people who don't believe that I would risk my life to save someone else's. They are free to believe what they want, but I guarantee that if such a situation came up at their child's school they would want me there.

I, like many others here, could not live with myself if I did not intervene in some way in a life threatening situation, whether it be a drowning, fire, shooting, car accident, earthquake, mugging...the actual situation would determine what my exact response would be. But suffice it to say I would do something. It is how I was raised...it is part of who I am.

Do I expect everyone to think like I do? No. I understand people being afraid to get involved directly...but I don't think there is much excuse for not at least making a 911 call.

EAF...I was writing my post as you submitted yours. I also understand people being unwilling to get involved in certain situations for fear of being sued if something goes wrong. I know many states have passed "Good Samaritan" laws to prevent this from happening...it's a start at least.

[This message has been edited by Ottergal (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
I beleive in calling 911...and let the cops sort things out. I will use appropriate force to protect myself and loved ones.
I don't know anyone who has come upon a rape in progress....however I would call 911...assuming the rapee is screaming for help.(There are those who like to do it in strange places.)
I would not produce my pistol to stop the rape. For all I know the cops are on the way...they don't know who I am...and chances are I might get shot by LEO's arrivng on the scene....thinking I might be a perp.
This happened a few month ago...when a store owner was being robbed at gunpoint in his store. He and two perps shot it out inside the store.Nobody hit anything. Perps flee into parking lot and carjack a Jeep from a young woman.Store owner runs outside and continues shooting at perps.Two LEO's just leaving fast food place, hear shots.They see store owner shooting into parking lot...tell him to drop the weapon....twice...storeowner either does not hear them...or does not understand what they were saying.(store owner is Korean)Cops shoot storeowner to death.Perps escape...but are later caught.
My point is you must be very careful what you get involved in. What you think you see...may not be what is really happening.
David Scott....I was merely responding to Glamdrings original post.And what I sometimes think I see on TFL....posts that have that Armchair Gunslinger mentality.I have no problem with concealed carry.... nor do I believe that concealed carry makes a person more bloodthirsty or willing to cap someone. I was hoping to get a response like the one you gave....in that, given a set of circumstances(what I wrote)some people will react a certain way.Furthermore..because of WHAT I wrote....and HOW I wrote it you assumed it was a Freudian slip....and of course came to the conclusion I should never go near a firearm.You also assumed that the pop bottles were glass...not plastic.
My point being...is that if you want to wade in and stop whatever YOU perceive is going down....and are willing to stake your life on that of a stranger...then go ahead.But if I choose not too...or just call 911...then I should not be castigated..nor should EAF for choosing another path.
;)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr.X:
I beleive in calling 911...and let the cops sort things out. I will use appropriate force to protect myself and loved ones.
I don't know anyone who has come upon a rape in progress....however I would call 911...assuming the rapee is screaming for help.
But if I choose not too...or just call 911...then I should not be castigated..nor should EAF for choosing another path.
[/quote]
Well I have not happened upon a rape. But I have stopped a male in his early 20's from dragging a female around 13 out of a public area [a mall with lots of people around, they didn't even call security/cops]. I wasn't armed at the time [well a spyderco but I don't count that].

I believe at least one or two TFL members have been assaulted in public with spectators around.

I, personally, agree if someone doesn't act directly they don't deserve criticism...I guess I think we should praise people who do to encourage them to act that way. That is part of what confuses me I guess, why doesn't society reward people that make a sacrifice to aid others.

The other thing is that with Natural disasters and such [fires, storms, etc.] people tend to help in large numbers and expect nothing in return...why is it different when goblins are involved?

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
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