They can be great fun, and have a bit of practicality. I have a Hi-Point 9mm carbine, and a short-barrel Enfield No.4 in .45 ACP. I use warmish 147 grain 9mms in the HP, and I load for the Enfield to .45 Super specs. I don't use either set of ammo in pistols, but the carbines are a nice accurate alternative to a pistol or rifle in the 50 to 125 yard range. They are quiet, light shooting, hard hitting, and pretty accurate at those short distances.
Rifles with pistol calibers. Why?
- Thread starter Pond James Pond
- Start date
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
We need a specific reference for the claim that the 357 Sig will penetrate body armor in a pistol or long arm.
The same claim could be made for 357 magnums also.
So the reference please.
The same claim could be made for 357 magnums also.
So the reference please.
tahunua001
New member
So why do they make them?
pistol caliber carbines have a number of uses, they are good for pest removal, cheap rifle practice or just plinking and having fun.
Is it to spread the use of handgun calibres?
I don't really think that is the main purpose though it does take a little away from the handgun ammo market while taking a little bit of pressure off of the rifle ammo market.
Do they have a particular characteristic/use?
it is very convenient to have a rifle and pistol both chambered in the same round so you only have to worry about stocking up on a single round rather than multiple calibers.
Are they normally semi, bolt or lever-action?
a majority of the ones that stick out are semi auto rifles for rounds like the 45 ACP and 9mm but the 357 MAG, 45 long colt and 44 MAG are very popular lever action chambers as well. rugers M77R series bolt action rifles also are available in 357 and 44 mag and a few companies make conversion kits for older military surplus rifles to take pistol calibers as well so the spectrum is pretty wide compared to just a few years ago.
Are they short range, medium or long?
for the most part they are all short range rifles that lose a lot of velocity after 100 meters. bolt actions maximize velocity since all of the energy is being directed forward rather than using the rearward energy to cycle a new round and 44 mag is a pretty powerful round so out of a bolt action I would say it would still be a capable hunting round out to 250 meters.
I have one in 9mm and it's really fun because it's cheaper to shoot than most of my rifles and it has very light recoil and muzzle report so it's great for a trainer rifle as well.
pistol caliber carbines have a number of uses, they are good for pest removal, cheap rifle practice or just plinking and having fun.
Is it to spread the use of handgun calibres?
I don't really think that is the main purpose though it does take a little away from the handgun ammo market while taking a little bit of pressure off of the rifle ammo market.
Do they have a particular characteristic/use?
it is very convenient to have a rifle and pistol both chambered in the same round so you only have to worry about stocking up on a single round rather than multiple calibers.
Are they normally semi, bolt or lever-action?
a majority of the ones that stick out are semi auto rifles for rounds like the 45 ACP and 9mm but the 357 MAG, 45 long colt and 44 MAG are very popular lever action chambers as well. rugers M77R series bolt action rifles also are available in 357 and 44 mag and a few companies make conversion kits for older military surplus rifles to take pistol calibers as well so the spectrum is pretty wide compared to just a few years ago.
Are they short range, medium or long?
for the most part they are all short range rifles that lose a lot of velocity after 100 meters. bolt actions maximize velocity since all of the energy is being directed forward rather than using the rearward energy to cycle a new round and 44 mag is a pretty powerful round so out of a bolt action I would say it would still be a capable hunting round out to 250 meters.
I have one in 9mm and it's really fun because it's cheaper to shoot than most of my rifles and it has very light recoil and muzzle report so it's great for a trainer rifle as well.
So why do they make them? I have multiple rifles that shoot pistol caliber rounds. I also have many long guns that shoot 223, 308 and 30-06. Several weekends ago I shot my Beretta 9mm storm carbine. On one target I put 100 rounds. I wouldn’t care to do that with an 06. Both pain and cost are a very big reason they make them, because people want them.
Is it to spread the use of handgun calibres? Same answer as above, because people want them.
Do they have a particular characteristic/use? Of all the rifles I own and I own a lot of them, for home defense I would pick the Beretta carbine over everything else. It’s fast, accurate out to 100 yards although energy is low and very easy to use in a narrow hallway.
Are they normally semi, bolt or lever-action? I don’t mean to put you down with this answer but if you don’t already know the answer to that one you need to do more research.
Are they short range, medium or long? My 9mm, 50 to 75 yards because of energy. My 44 mag Ruger 77/44 on a deer, 150 tops and it has dropped one that far.
Has a photo of the target with 100 rounds at 100 yards
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486920
Is it to spread the use of handgun calibres? Same answer as above, because people want them.
Do they have a particular characteristic/use? Of all the rifles I own and I own a lot of them, for home defense I would pick the Beretta carbine over everything else. It’s fast, accurate out to 100 yards although energy is low and very easy to use in a narrow hallway.
Are they normally semi, bolt or lever-action? I don’t mean to put you down with this answer but if you don’t already know the answer to that one you need to do more research.
Are they short range, medium or long? My 9mm, 50 to 75 yards because of energy. My 44 mag Ruger 77/44 on a deer, 150 tops and it has dropped one that far.
Has a photo of the target with 100 rounds at 100 yards
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486920
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arizona98tj
New member
Rifles with pistol calibers. Why?
Because shooting pistol calibers in a rifle are a lot easier on you than shooting rifle calibers in pistols.
I use to shoot .223 Rem and .30-.30 Win in a T/C Contender. The .223 wasn't bad....but a hot batch of .30-30 made for a short stay on the firing line.
So....there you have it....it just makes a lot more sense to shoot pistol calibers out of a rifle.
Because shooting pistol calibers in a rifle are a lot easier on you than shooting rifle calibers in pistols.
I use to shoot .223 Rem and .30-.30 Win in a T/C Contender. The .223 wasn't bad....but a hot batch of .30-30 made for a short stay on the firing line.
So....there you have it....it just makes a lot more sense to shoot pistol calibers out of a rifle.
Edward429451
Moderator
I'd like to have a 44 Mag LA rifle. My friend has a 45acp Beretta Storm, and I don't think that would be a good choice because the 45acp round is going too light in my opinion for a carbine. (and I like 45acp!). Actually, the Storms 16" barrel adds 150 fps to velocities over a 5" barrel, so thats not too bad but for the weight and size of a Storm, and for the cost, one would be better served with a Mini-14.
If it was 45 WinMag it would make all sorts of sense. Or even a 50 AE carbine. Now that would be a hot little thumper and I would buy two. There is a whole in the market where some big bore carbines should be.
If it was 45 WinMag it would make all sorts of sense. Or even a 50 AE carbine. Now that would be a hot little thumper and I would buy two. There is a whole in the market where some big bore carbines should be.
I have never understood this train of thought....So..if U are using the same ammo in your rifle or carbine..that U use in your handgun...Your long arm is a short range gun....
You can load for your handgun to get full potential..or load for your carbine to get full potential....It won't be the same load..just same caliber....
So where is the advantage?
Pathfinder45
New member
Origins
It was 1873. Winchester had a brand new repeating rifle in a new cartridge, the 44 Winchester Center Fire, (44WCF). Colt had a brand new revolver firing metallic centerfire cartridges called 45 Colt. At first, the Colt was only available to the U.S. Cavalry. But the Winchester was available to anybody with cash. There were several much better calibers for hunting big game, but they were single-shots. The single shot rifles were superior for hunting but there was this other problem..... Did y'all know that the Comanches shunned firearms because their bows were better for combat than muzzle-loading guns? They took on firearms when repeating arms became available. It was hostile Indians on the frontier that guaranteed the success of Winchester Repeating Arms. Once Colt got caught up on their Government contracts they looked at civilian marketing possibilities. The Colt people, being reasonably bright, were looking at Winchester's recent success with their 1873 model and noticed that the Winchester cartridge, coincidentally was very similar in size to the 45 Colt. In fact it would slip right into the cylinder of the Colt revolver. They wasted no time in offering their revolver in 44-40 on the civilian market and specially marked the barrels, "Frontier Six-Shooter". Colt revolvers and Winchester rifles were a popular match, made not in Heaven, but on a wild and dangerous frontier. The 1873 Winchester was adequate for deer if you could get close enough. There were plenty of better choices for hunting. But for conflicts with determined enemies there was perhaps no better rifle in the world at that time. The frontier was the boundary between civilization and lawlessness. There would be forts and trading posts there where you could obtain ammo and other supplies. But westward there would be no resupply. Only risky opportunity and uncertainty. It made a lot of sense to have most, if not every gun in your party chambered for the same ammo. Here's the short list of the reasons why: Arapahoe, Kiowa, Cheyenne, Comanche, Apache, Blackfoot, Sioux, etc. That was how it started back then and fun had nothing to do with it. Nowadays it might have more to do with fun than practicality.
It was 1873. Winchester had a brand new repeating rifle in a new cartridge, the 44 Winchester Center Fire, (44WCF). Colt had a brand new revolver firing metallic centerfire cartridges called 45 Colt. At first, the Colt was only available to the U.S. Cavalry. But the Winchester was available to anybody with cash. There were several much better calibers for hunting big game, but they were single-shots. The single shot rifles were superior for hunting but there was this other problem..... Did y'all know that the Comanches shunned firearms because their bows were better for combat than muzzle-loading guns? They took on firearms when repeating arms became available. It was hostile Indians on the frontier that guaranteed the success of Winchester Repeating Arms. Once Colt got caught up on their Government contracts they looked at civilian marketing possibilities. The Colt people, being reasonably bright, were looking at Winchester's recent success with their 1873 model and noticed that the Winchester cartridge, coincidentally was very similar in size to the 45 Colt. In fact it would slip right into the cylinder of the Colt revolver. They wasted no time in offering their revolver in 44-40 on the civilian market and specially marked the barrels, "Frontier Six-Shooter". Colt revolvers and Winchester rifles were a popular match, made not in Heaven, but on a wild and dangerous frontier. The 1873 Winchester was adequate for deer if you could get close enough. There were plenty of better choices for hunting. But for conflicts with determined enemies there was perhaps no better rifle in the world at that time. The frontier was the boundary between civilization and lawlessness. There would be forts and trading posts there where you could obtain ammo and other supplies. But westward there would be no resupply. Only risky opportunity and uncertainty. It made a lot of sense to have most, if not every gun in your party chambered for the same ammo. Here's the short list of the reasons why: Arapahoe, Kiowa, Cheyenne, Comanche, Apache, Blackfoot, Sioux, etc. That was how it started back then and fun had nothing to do with it. Nowadays it might have more to do with fun than practicality.
Practical handgun Gunfight w/ 357/45Colt/44-40: < 7 yrds
Practical Winchester Gunfight w/ same cartridges: 100-150 yrds
It's a matter of both added velocity and added precision w/ the latter
(notwithstanding Elmer Keith*, Hollywood and macho grandstanding w/ the former)
(And) as Pathfinder noted: old-time Logistics
* Elmer's been one of my Hell-I-Was-There heroes since 1969, so don't start yelling
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Having asked on some techy places - haven't come up with evidence that a 357 Sig will penetrate a IIIA vest.
Some folks will test for fun and get back to me. Some say they have and it doesn't.
PS
The current NIJ 0101.06 standard for IIIA is:
.357sig 125GR FMJ @ 1470FPS
.44mag 240GR SJHP @1430FPS
Some folks will test for fun and get back to me. Some say they have and it doesn't.
PS
The current NIJ 0101.06 standard for IIIA is:
.357sig 125GR FMJ @ 1470FPS
.44mag 240GR SJHP @1430FPS
bamaranger
New member
two
I've got two (well actually 3) pistol cal carbines. A .357 Marilin and a pair of .44 Ruger autos, old style. NOte all mag handgun cals, the current auto pistol carbines leave me cold. Now, a 10mm carbine, that does sound intersting.
The Marlin is nice step up from a .22 as a trainer and light fun gun. With relaoded .38s its cheap (can we say that these days) to shoot. It'll feed .38's and was a useful transition for my boy from rimfire to centerfire. Its midrange power would make it good pot gun for 'chucks, turkeys (blasphemy to some!) and other medium game to 50 lbs or so, and varmints. All up in magnum configuration, it is serious medicine, a useful increase over revolver power, and much easier to hit with past 50 yds. Its frequently debated as to whether or not a suitably loaded .357 carbine is an adequate deer rifle, but I have no doubt it would work, but have not killed a deer with mine.
My Ruger .44's are not midrange or pot guns. They need full power to work (autos) but are good killers on deer and would make viable SD guns as well. The mag capcity is a bit low for current trends, but I don't have a real prob with that. The .44 is likely at its best with heavy slugs, and the current 265-300 and up slugs are all the rage, but my old Rugers will not group them. A 300 grain .44 at carbine velocity, ( say what?.....1500 fps) would be bad news for bear and hogs too. Close range...100 yd zeros on mine, but often all I need for many whitetail hunts. My last Ruger .44 deer kill was at 30 paces.
All carry easy. The Rugers might be just over 6 lbs, all up (the one with a scop is for sure) and the Marlin likely doesn-t make 6. I take a lot of grief from other hunters when the .44 Carbine is in my hands, but
I've got two (well actually 3) pistol cal carbines. A .357 Marilin and a pair of .44 Ruger autos, old style. NOte all mag handgun cals, the current auto pistol carbines leave me cold. Now, a 10mm carbine, that does sound intersting.
The Marlin is nice step up from a .22 as a trainer and light fun gun. With relaoded .38s its cheap (can we say that these days) to shoot. It'll feed .38's and was a useful transition for my boy from rimfire to centerfire. Its midrange power would make it good pot gun for 'chucks, turkeys (blasphemy to some!) and other medium game to 50 lbs or so, and varmints. All up in magnum configuration, it is serious medicine, a useful increase over revolver power, and much easier to hit with past 50 yds. Its frequently debated as to whether or not a suitably loaded .357 carbine is an adequate deer rifle, but I have no doubt it would work, but have not killed a deer with mine.
My Ruger .44's are not midrange or pot guns. They need full power to work (autos) but are good killers on deer and would make viable SD guns as well. The mag capcity is a bit low for current trends, but I don't have a real prob with that. The .44 is likely at its best with heavy slugs, and the current 265-300 and up slugs are all the rage, but my old Rugers will not group them. A 300 grain .44 at carbine velocity, ( say what?.....1500 fps) would be bad news for bear and hogs too. Close range...100 yd zeros on mine, but often all I need for many whitetail hunts. My last Ruger .44 deer kill was at 30 paces.
All carry easy. The Rugers might be just over 6 lbs, all up (the one with a scop is for sure) and the Marlin likely doesn-t make 6. I take a lot of grief from other hunters when the .44 Carbine is in my hands, but
Yes, but you don't write policy on corner cases. If you do you get what we have now, police armed to the hilt for Red Dawn instead of working to solve the rash of garage break ins that have been happening. I pay my taxes for the cops to solve the latter, not to go blow $3K in ammo every 3 months preparing for the former.
That doesn't sound right.
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html
Not that much of a difference and not that different than a .357mag or even hot 9mm load - neither of which will penetrate cop vests I'm familiar with (even out of a PCC).
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Edward429451
Moderator
To me, in order for the pistol caliber carbine to be a viable weapon, it has to deliver something more than the 9mm-45 carbines do and perhaps even a 357 carbine. You have to get something for the trade or its no good. Why would anyone carry a carbine the size of a 223 carbine but with less penetration and versatility? It doesn't make sense.
When you step into the big bore carbines (and this does not include Beretta Storm 45's) with at or near magnum performance...then you have something that may be worth carrying over a 223!
Ok so lets say its a 44 Mag. Oh so it will be stopped by the robbers vest? So what? If you hit him in the vest with a 240@1400, he's going to have 6" of backface deformation and be out of the fight. Not so with lesser pistol caliber carbines.
Sheer horsepower is a good trade off for the carbine sized weapon firing pistol calibers vs a rifle cartridge. Ammo compatability alone is not enough reason to handicap your carbine with an anemic round.
When you step into the big bore carbines (and this does not include Beretta Storm 45's) with at or near magnum performance...then you have something that may be worth carrying over a 223!
Ok so lets say its a 44 Mag. Oh so it will be stopped by the robbers vest? So what? If you hit him in the vest with a 240@1400, he's going to have 6" of backface deformation and be out of the fight. Not so with lesser pistol caliber carbines.
Sheer horsepower is a good trade off for the carbine sized weapon firing pistol calibers vs a rifle cartridge. Ammo compatability alone is not enough reason to handicap your carbine with an anemic round.
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I rather think a .44 magnum lever action carbine, especially a Trapper variation, is an especially useful thing for the backcountry. Winchester used to have a particularly nice model. It also came in plain old .30-30 but I don't know if that would have been better or not. If you're carrying it for nothing more than self defense, it would be pretty good, in my opinion. Those old lever actions aren't perfect but they are about as handy as anything can be. On the ones I had, screws would continually come loose and the levers themselves were suspiciously loose, which I understand comes with the territory. But I don't think a .44 magnum could be faulted unless going into combat is what you're planning. I say all that even without having a companion revolver in that caliber, although a plain Jane 4" Model 29 is another gun that is close to perfect, if a .44 is part of the picture.
I guess I'm a little old fashioned.
I guess I'm a little old fashioned.
Strafer Gott
New member
Marlin Camp 9
One really big advantage is recovery time. With a carbine as heavy as this one, You feel like your shooting a .22. Velocities are similar, so you feel like your back in your boyhood on your 10-22, using similar rates of fire. Report is low, because the powder has finished burning, even if you've loaded some warm ones. On top of that, it uses the same mags as my 6906. Now that's a winner.
One really big advantage is recovery time. With a carbine as heavy as this one, You feel like your shooting a .22. Velocities are similar, so you feel like your back in your boyhood on your 10-22, using similar rates of fire. Report is low, because the powder has finished burning, even if you've loaded some warm ones. On top of that, it uses the same mags as my 6906. Now that's a winner.
One word: Logistics.
One caliber for pistol and rifle. For people who don't spend 25% of their income on shooting, that is a big deal. Why stockpile 1,000 rounds of 9mm and 1,000 rounds of 223, and potentially run out of one or the other, when you can just stock 2,000 rounds of 9mm? The 2008 shortage showed that sort of thinking to not be a crazy idea at all.
If you are a reloader it is stupid easy to load the pistol calibers with lead bullets at near full power. Loading cast bullets in a 22 centerfire is something successfully done only by the best cast bullet experts, I can't do it and get it to work well and I load my 9mm-45 exclusively with my own cast bullets. Not to mention you have to reduce the load to get cast to work in center-fire rifle.
If you don't reload, but know a reloader, it is also much easier to convince them to load your brass.
Also note that many LEO agencies go with .223 because of the REDUCED penetration vs 9mm.
Edward429451
Moderator
I understand, but my misson differs from LEO's. I shoot less rounds less often and if I am in a scrap things are way out of the ordinary, so the amount of options can be increased with the added versatility of more penetration.
I respect the logistical angle, yet I load for so many cartridges that it does not offer me an advantage in logistics to have a sub caliber carbine. I can see it where someone may not load as many different calibers as I do.
Most people don't reload period. We avid reloaders tend to sometimes forget that.
For me it comes down to the fact that reloading pistol calibers with carbide dies is MUCH easier than FL sizing rifle brass. It's also why I'm appreciating my bolt actions more. Neck sizing my rifle brass is so much faster, and it lasts longer.