Reflects the tactical doctrine of the times and the countries, the officer and the NCO was expected to keep tighter control of his troops, the soldier was trained to wait for orders. Also the battles were still fought largely in the standup/close order manner. We had Gatling guns in Cuba in 1898 but it was the Russo-Japanese War that really proved their lethality. The older Lee Enfields, the P-14 had the volley sights, I have seen excerpts from manuals demonstrating their use so troops could create a "beaten zone" at long range, say 600 yards or greater.
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Rifles that had magazine cutoff?
- Thread starter TruthTellers
- Start date
Consider this,
I think it was the stripper clip that eventually doomed the magazine cutoff. The extra parts and labor cost building a magazine cutoff into a rifle simply makes no good sense in an era when stripper clips allow rapid reloading.
Remember the era and the rifles involved, especially the US ones. The Krag had a cutoff, and didn't use stripper clips. It didn't fare so well when up against Mausers reloading with strippers.
The next generation of US rifles was the Springfield, which did use the Mauser type stripper clip. I think the Springfield kept the cutoff, feature because the Krag had it, and, its a small matter, really...
The next generation of US rifles was the Garand. Enbloc clips. No magazine cutoff. (pointless) and none of the later rifles has had one, either.
I think it was the stripper clip that eventually doomed the magazine cutoff. The extra parts and labor cost building a magazine cutoff into a rifle simply makes no good sense in an era when stripper clips allow rapid reloading.
Remember the era and the rifles involved, especially the US ones. The Krag had a cutoff, and didn't use stripper clips. It didn't fare so well when up against Mausers reloading with strippers.
The next generation of US rifles was the Springfield, which did use the Mauser type stripper clip. I think the Springfield kept the cutoff, feature because the Krag had it, and, its a small matter, really...
The next generation of US rifles was the Garand. Enbloc clips. No magazine cutoff. (pointless) and none of the later rifles has had one, either.
The mag cut off in a Lee-Enfield was there primarily because the Brit generals did not trust their men. And because they were still thinking in terms of Napoleonic warfare. They thought their troopies would waste ammunition without the mag cut off.
At the beginning of W.W. I, Canadian militia officers, were told to send their swords to the Regimental weapons techs(not called that then) to be sharpened.
"...motorized vehicles were commonplace...." Nope. Haig thought right up to 1918 that the PBI would break the line and be followed by cavalry. When the CEF did break the line at Vimy, there was no cavalry ready. The only wide spread use of vehicles was by the CEF's MG troopies in armoured cars. And a few, very few trucks. Nearly all logistics was horse drawn.
At the beginning of W.W. I, Canadian militia officers, were told to send their swords to the Regimental weapons techs(not called that then) to be sharpened.
"...motorized vehicles were commonplace...." Nope. Haig thought right up to 1918 that the PBI would break the line and be followed by cavalry. When the CEF did break the line at Vimy, there was no cavalry ready. The only wide spread use of vehicles was by the CEF's MG troopies in armoured cars. And a few, very few trucks. Nearly all logistics was horse drawn.
FrankenMauser
New member
This is true, and why they issued a rifle with a 10-round detachable magazine; but then didn't issue additional magazines, and only allowed 5 rounds to be loaded most of the time.The mag cut off in a Lee-Enfield was there primarily because the Brit generals did not trust their men. And because they were still thinking in terms of Napoleonic warfare. They thought their troopies would waste ammunition without the mag cut off.
But we all know the Br*tish have always been retarded and have always had disciplinary issues - stemming from their culture, not just on the military side.
The magazine cutoff on the Lebel makes some sense since that tubular magazine was slow to reload and loaded through the top of the action. They did not put one on the Mannlicher-Berthier.
The Brits found it was simpler to leave the magazine in the rifle and have the shooter use stripper clips.
The Brits found it was simpler to leave the magazine in the rifle and have the shooter use stripper clips.
I'll have to check but I recall reading that the SMLE's were issued with a spare magazine. Not for use as a loaded rapid reload, but as a ready replacement if the soldier lost the mag from his rifle.
The SMLE magazine doesn't have the kind of feed lips found on later design detachable magazines, and it seems to me that any kind of rough handling of the loaded mag outside the rifle can easily pop rounds loose.
Do remember that until our fairly recent all volunteer army, armies consisted of a few career types, a number of conscripts, and some people who chose military service over a jail sentence.
So, a General's distrust of the common trooper wasn't entirely a matter of class snobbery.
The SMLE magazine doesn't have the kind of feed lips found on later design detachable magazines, and it seems to me that any kind of rough handling of the loaded mag outside the rifle can easily pop rounds loose.
Do remember that until our fairly recent all volunteer army, armies consisted of a few career types, a number of conscripts, and some people who chose military service over a jail sentence.
So, a General's distrust of the common trooper wasn't entirely a matter of class snobbery.
"...SMLE's were issued with a spare magazine..." Nope. No. 1 Mk III series rifles mags actually had a wee chain holding 'em to the rifle. Troopies were issued with 5 round mag chargers(aka stripper clips). Ditto for No. 4 Mk I series rifles. It was 5 because anything bigger would be a gigantic pain to carry.
The mag cut off was dispensed with after the early battles of W.W. I showed how useless it was and because it simplified manufacturing.
The mag cut off was dispensed with after the early battles of W.W. I showed how useless it was and because it simplified manufacturing.
FrankenMauser
New member
We understand the argument you are trying to make, but No 1 Mk IIIs and No 4 Mk Is are not SMLEs.
The magazine cutoff met tactical requirements that were based on theories that were tested and found wanting. The only time I have found a magazine cutoff useful is firing single shots at the range. The Germans did not adopt it in their M1888 Commision rifle, the Italians did not adopt it in the M1891 Carcano nor the Russians in the Mosin-Nagant.
I wouldn't say that British officers and generals didn't trust their troops, rather it was a more formal army from a more formal country, the officers were expected to lead, the NCOs to ensure the troops obeyed.
I served in the Army 1967-1971, knew plenty of fine young men who enlisted voluntarily or answered their country's call. R. Lee Ermey admitted he was a "judge recommended" enlistee.
I wouldn't say that British officers and generals didn't trust their troops, rather it was a more formal army from a more formal country, the officers were expected to lead, the NCOs to ensure the troops obeyed.
I served in the Army 1967-1971, knew plenty of fine young men who enlisted voluntarily or answered their country's call. R. Lee Ermey admitted he was a "judge recommended" enlistee.