Rifle Shopping - Black Bear + Deer

J

jplayland

Inactive
I'm located in the Twin Cities, MN. I have a Shotgun for Deer (rifled with sabots) and birds in the southern half of MN. I would like to get a rifle for deer hunting in the northern half of MN where they are legal to use. I'm also planning on going for black bear next year, I missed the lottery this year.

I would prefer a bit of overkill on the bear for safety sake. My uncle damn near got his ass kicked by a bear he thought he had killed. He was lucky he had a backup hand gun, but broke his wrist taking the bear down.

So, should I bump my caliber up from 308/30-06 to be safe? If I go with a higher cal, what factory loads would I use for deer to avoid excess damage.

I think I picked the gun, the Savage 11 FCNS. I just need your help picking the caliber.
 
Hey jplayland! and welcome to FTE from a fellow MN guy. I did the same sort of shopping earlier on this summer and ended up with a Stevens 200 in .30-06. Not the greatest rifle in the world, but one that I was comfortable shooting and buying new. My thoughts are basically this:

1. You can't go wrong with a .30-06 for any big game in North America.

2. In the future if I decide to bear hunt, I don't NEED to buy a new rifle, I just switch to 180 gr loads.

3. I know of countless people up here who use the '06 for deer with 180 gr bullets. I personally don't think the 180's are designed as a deer bullet, but I know they do the trick. I plan on using a 150 gr Fusion load this year, and after that, reloading 150 grain bullets for the rest of my deer hunting life.

4. Great pick on the Savage! My .30-06 was my second Savage-made rifle and I love them both!
 
30-06 will do fine. If you're concerned make sure you use a more robust bullet than you would for whitetails. 180 or 200 grain bullet like a Nosler partition or Barnes TSX will kill almost anything.
 
I'd go with the Savage 116 Bear Hunter in 300 Win Mag. You can always down load the 300 with a lighter bullet and load for Deer.

Jim
 
Depends on how old you are and how much recoil you can muster. A .300 win mag is a great gun for bear, elk and large deer, but for small deer, it can be a bit of over kill. Also, the .300 WSM is an excellent choice for black bear hunting but it has limited ammo to 180 gr max unless you are reloading.

The 30-06 is a great gun for many uses and it will get the job done for deer, elk and black bear with proper shot placement.

If you are looking at getting more than one rifle, then don't forget the .270 that Jack O'Connor championed for thin skinned non-dangerous game which would work well for deer. Black bears can be dangerous in certain circumstances so you may consider large bore rifles such as .444, .450 and 45-70 especially if the type of hunting is from a tree stand with limited long range visibility for bear. Many people like the .243 and similar calibers for deer as well as the trusty 30-30 that many people still cherish and for good reason. It has a great history in North America folklore. It is a bit small for black bear hunting but many bears have been harvested with this rifle over the years even though on paper it appear inadequate.

If you are looking at large Alaskan Grizzly, then do yourself a favor and get separate deer and bear guns which for grizzly would start realistically with a .338 and up. The 45-70 is a great brush gun for close encounter hunting and woods defense since it is lightweight, and easily carried.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/column12_jack_o_connor.htm

In general, you will never go wrong with a 30-06 and when I get to the point that I not only don't like to shoot my .300 WSM, but it becomes a bit too much for me, the 30-06 will replace it. That is my elk and deer rifle and the Marlin .444 is my woods gun and bear protection wrapped up in one. There are a lot of combinations you can put together to have available.
 
Welcome to the forum! My uncle killed a nice black bear with a .30-06 shooting 180 gr Remington Core-Lokt bullets. No problems at all. Less than $20 a box, fairly accurate in most guns and good expansion. Right now that's about all I hunt with.

I've always been told that black bear really aren't that hard to kill considering their size. But if you want to step up to a 'better' bullet, I would consider the Nosler Partitions.
 
I hunt black bear with a 30-06 almost exclusively (except when I use my handguns). The '06 with 165 grain bonded or partition type bullets will do the job, but you have to do yours. It the bullet hits where it is supposed to all is well, If not :(:eek: Caliber matter far less than shot placement. Second is bullet construction.
 
You don't need big guns to kill a black bear. 30-06 is more than I'd use.

I don't like recoil. 7mm-08 for me. For anything I'll ever hunt.
 
The late great Col. Townsend Whelen once said, "The 30-06 is never a mistake." I agree. I've probably used the 30-06 more than any other cartridge in roughly 55 years of hunting. Many years ago, I gave up on lighter bullets in the cartridge and settled on two loads, worked up to basically hit the same point of impact or very close to 250 yards.I use the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunter for generally deer sized game and the 180 gr. Nosler Partition for elk and similar animals. So far, this has worked just fine for me and I see no reason to change. Murphy" second law, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." ;)
If shots in your general area are on the short side, say 150 yards or less, I might look and the Hornady 180 gr. round nose Interlock as that would handle both species of game. I have a brother-in-law that shoots the 30-06 exclusively with Winchester 180 gr. Power Point round nose bullets and will use nothing else. He's been hunting almost as long as I have and shoots everything from mice to moose with that load.
With that said, there are no flies on the .308 and lately I've ben using one for deer with a stiff load of W-760 and the 165 gr. Speer Hot-core. Not the fastest load in that rifle but I would not hesitate to use it on deer, Black bear or even elk if I was within 200 yards.
Personally, if I were hunting deer and Black Bear in an area where shots would normally run to 200 yards or less, I'd seriously look at a Browning BLR in .358 Win. The one I have is surprisinly accurate with the 200 gr. Hornady round nose and spire point bullets and the few deer I've shot with it were literally DRT, bang/flop dead on the spot. I would have no qualms using that load on a bear but would rather have a 225 gr. bullet for them.
Where I live I can get a bear tag for the area I'm hunting elk and my rifle of choice is the .35 Whelen. Serious smackdown power there.:D:cool: But that's me. I see why Elmer Keith liked the round. It just plain flat out works. :cool:
Not to get too far OT, but I read Hawk's article on O'Connor. I get the impression he did not like Elmer much. Too bad.
To get back on point though, go with whatever you like. If I was restricted to one rifle of everything, I'd probably go with the 30-06 and never look back.
When Jim Carmichel took over Jack O'Connor's job at Outdoor Life, he asked Jack what cartridge would he go with if restricted to one rifle and cartrdige for all North American hunting? Without hesitation, Jack said, "The 30-06."
Pretty mucch says it all.
Paul B.
 
Your shotgun is plenty good already and probably preferred by a lot of us for bear up close to any rifle.

Even a 30-30 is sufficient, .308 is more than sufficient, any bullet good on deer will do for bear, I use 180 gr Core-Lokt's in my .308 because they have worked for me for a lot of years so there is a comfort factor there.

Now if you are saying you want to buy a new gun you don't have to use the bear for an excuse, just decide what makes you grin the most and get it. Enjoy. :D
 
I'm also a bag fan of the 30-06, and I feel it's just about the pefect caliber in both cases. I think you will really like it.
 
IMO the 243 will do the trick, like with any caliber bullet placement/accuracy is the key, a 30-06 in the belly will make for an angry bear.;)
 
I'm a fan of the .308 Winchester, which is based on the 30-06.

For bear and elk, I feel comfortable out to 400 Yards with that caliber and a little further for deer. Beyond that I want a .300 Winchester Magnum. You will notice, both calibers revolve around the 30-06. As Col. Whelen said, "The 30-06 is never a mistake."

I don't personally own a 30-06 as I have the other two calibers, which I refer to as the "30-06 Lite" and the "30-06 on steroids." For me it makes little sense to have an '06, but if I had to choose one rifle and caliber it would either be a 30-06 or a .300 WM.

Biker
 
The .308 is a perfectly good round for most anything in the lower 48. I have a CZ 550FS chambered for .308. From there I go to a .338 WinMag in a BAR.
 
For the last 15 years I've been using a .300 Win Mag on whitetail (big Wisconsin whitetail) and have loaned it to my BIL who has taken two elk and a black bear (that was in their truck eating the elk) with it. Nothing went anywhere. It doesn't wreck meat on a whitetail but it makes gutting it alot more messy. No one else will tag your animals if you put the shot in the right place. And I used cheapo Remington core-loct 150 gr. and BIL used expensive Federal Premium (nosler) 180 gr. on everything. I put a limb saver pad on my Ruger 77 Mk II and it's now not a bad rifle to shoot at all.

This year I'll be using a .270 Win that I just bought on deer for the first time in many years. I only hope it does as well as my trusy old .300.

I've emptied a .308 into a doe broadside at 50 yards and the damn thing wouldn't die until I put a 180 gr. round nose core-lokt into her. All shots were in the boiler. The first shots were 150 gr. core-lokts. I'm not fond of the .308. That doe just looked at me and groaned. I hate not making quick kills. That sorrowful look that doe gave me bothered me for weeks. And I've emptied a 30-30 into a huge buck broadside at 40 yards and it never even flinched, just trotted away. I followed the blood trail 100 yards only to find it tagged by the guy who brought me hunting (my first year). I nailed a doe broadside at 50 yards with a 30-.06. It had two (grown) fawns with her. She walked 20 yards and finally fell over. The fawns stayed with her until I walked up. That was sad also. This is why I can't bow hunt. It's not a quick HUMANE kill.

I've never had those things happen with a .270 Win or .300 Win Mag. They drop on the spot and don't know what hit them.
 
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Just because a deer drops on the shot doesn't make it "dead", we all know that, right? Dying takes time, unless you destroy the brain.

It doesn't matter what you poke holes with, a hole through a deer is the same with a 30-30, 30-06 or 300winmag, so long as full or equal penetration is achieved.

Besides which, I don't care if you're using a 50BMG, you're NOT going to drop every deer, right there, on the spot. It's not going to happen.

I've shot deer through both lungs with a 12ga and had them live longer than deer that I've shot with a bow. VERY few rifles deliver more energy or momentum on target than does a high-end 12ga slug at close range.

The fascination for, even demand for, "Dead Right There" shooting has CAUSED more wounded and missed animals than being "under gunned" ever has or will. I can't count the number of guys I've met who can't hardly hit a deer because they're so afraid of their guns knocking their shoulders out of joint. It's ridiculous.

I watched a hunting show where this guy shot an elk with a 375 HH mag. The thing ran 40 yards and stopped, so he shoots again. Poor thing runs a ways further and stops again. Just as it's OBVIOUSLY about to tip over, he shoots it again. Then he looks at the camera and starts pontificating about "this is why you need a lot of gun! These animals are tough.... Blah, blah, blah"

What a jackass. The thing would have been on the ground within seconds of stopping THE FIRST TIME if he hadn't shot it and made it run again.

You don't need big uber magnums to kill deer. Or elk. Or bear. If you want to use them, fine. Have fun. More people don't shoot them well than do and suggesting they're necessary, or somehow more "merciful" is silly. No offense intended.
 
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I've shot a few Minnesota white tails with 308 Win and .30-06.

I seriously doubt the deer that I shot knew which rifle the bullet came from. The furthest any of them went was 25 yds from where they were hit. Only one took a 2nd shot....and that was from a handgun.

As for shooting black bear, I wouldn't hesitate to use either one. Bullet placement, for any game hunting, is key to filling your tag. Blazing away with a firearm in hopes of hitting something is really bad form and warrants shooting lessons at the least.
 
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