revolvers for LEO's?

C

cana

New member
Sorry to come back to this point again, but is there anyone who still thinks that the standard police handgun should be the revolver? Also, since I don't live in the US, i'd like to know if there are many police departments that still issue revolvers for new cops. In my state, patrolmen have only two options: the "company" .38 SPL or a privately owned .380 autopistol (state cops and civilians are restricted to these calibers). Most cops end up carrying both, but I still think a .40 or .45 would be best suited for the job.

Take care guys...
 
The revolver is THEE ultimate choice for general issue for a big number of reasons. The cost is much lower. They are so much cheaper and easier to maintain. Less failures in functioning among others. Having trained thousands of shooters you find few of them willing to take the time needed to use the the semi autos properly. It is consistant that agencies just flat out don't give officers enough training to shoot a semi auto properly and if they did they fail to note some will NEVER be able to work one properly, and for sure more than will have problems with revolvers.
The arguments for the Semi autos fall pretty flat when you check out the FACTS of shootings. They became a trendy fashion statement security blanket in the 1980's.
The result has been a high rate of AD's (20% fo all shots fired by Seattle PD were AD's according to a report there) and many depts have holes in walls and floors from AD's at a greater rate than in the past and some EXPECT AD's and provide "loading" tubes as a result.
I'm sure the semi auto fans will go nuts, but I have to deal with the reality. Police training programs are not Thunder Ranch. They are more like Barney & friends. A buzzcut and Gargoyles on a rope are not training.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
My personal knowledge why some cops still opt for the revolver is, in case there is an incident where legal problems arises or for other purposes, the revolver is a good weapon for it will not eject empty shell for further trace.

Secondly, some cops are die hard revolver user.

And lastly, it's because of its simplicity and user friendly.

Thanks

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited January 26, 2000).]
 
Just had to respond to tell pluspinc he is right on the money. I am a firearms instructor for a federal agency and I concur whole heartedly. I never bought into that argument that one is outgunned with a revolver. The S&W K frame revolver is one of the finest combat implements ever devised. With proper training, they continue to be very effective. That is not meant to disparage the may fine semi autos on the market. The have a place, and to the well trained do offer the advantage of additional ammo capacity. This arguement in itself is suspect because that additional capacity seems to have only raised the number of shots fired in police involved shootings. In most cases, the additional rounds do not seem to have been neccessary in order to stop hostilities. Unfortunately for most, it has lead to a "spray and pray" attitude. As has been said, you can't miss fast enough with a semi-auto. I'd say a good percentage of the law enforcement community (the vast majority of which are NOT "gun guys"), as well as the public they serve would be better served if officers carried revolvers.
 
In DC, the AD rate is off the scale! There was a huge article in the Post a while ago about the atrocious training and the deaths that occurred because the Dept. did not transition the men in blue from revolvers to the Glock. There have been many instances were officers, not accustomed to the somewhat lighter trigger pull of the Glock, put rounds into perps who were surrendering. Also had many mishaps while "cleaning" weapons.

There is nothing wrong with a good wheel-gun. In fact, I happen to be in the midst of a torrid love-affair with a 2-inch Taurus Model 617 (7-shot .357) right now. Most of the LEOs I know still hold a fond place in their hearts for the wheel-gun. If I recall rightly, the trend towards SA pistols came about in the 80s as cops went up against drug dealers toting MAC-10s, Uzis, and the like.

Training to use a SA is far more involved than a revolver. Most Depts. do not allocate sufficient resources to training to begin with, so the problem is only exacerbated by switching to a more complex weapon.
 
The Washington, DC police department has bigger problems than their choice of sidearm. The department, like the rest of DC's government, is poorly run, and they've hired too many poorly qualified officers.

Also, a Glock can be equipped with a NY2 trigger spring to give a trigger pull nearly as long and as heavy as that of a S&W Model 10.
 
That may all be true, but the reality is that autos have taken over in American law enforcement. In Colorado, POST has changed its firearms requirements- revolvers are no longer in the curriculum. They were mentioned as "obsolete" in my academy, my department, and the county and state level training I had. They were not even covered... The same is true in many States.

Now before you get riled up: I do not necessarily agree with the trend. But am merely reporting the reality of what is going on.

I think all officers should be trained on the following handguns:
1. Their primary issue pistol.
2. Any backup gun they may carry.
3. Revolvers in general.
4. Semi autos in general.

Duh, right? Wrong. Keep in mind most officers are not gun enthusiasts. Most barely qualify with #1 on my list, don't carry #2, believe #3 is for old timers, and cannot forsee where they may need to use another's gun #3 and #4.

Don't even get me started on shotguns, carbines, and rifles... :-)

Erik
 
Oh, someone I'm sure knows:

1. How many shots are fired in the average law enforcement gunfight.

2. What is the most fired? - keep tactical teams, WACO, etc out of it, please- just patrol officers.

Erik
 
I long argued that departments should keep their revolvers and use the money to teach police to shoot rather than give incompetent and untrained cops more ammunition to spray around the area.

Of course, I never had a chance. The combination of the mob screaming "gotta keep up with the crooks" and the offer of tons of free ammo from Uncle was just too much.

What? Waste time teaching cops to shoot? What a silly idea. Tell them to point and spray and qualify them with a pencil.

Jim
 
If you want revolvers for police work it is hard to beat the Smith & Wesson Model 625 .45ACP with a 4 or 5 inch barrel and full moon clips, accurate, reliable and the fastest modern revolver to reload.
 
Plus P and others: I trust that you know exactly what you're talking about due to your plenary experience. But I can't help but think: What incompetent moron that you're training can "never be able to work one [semi-auto pistol] properly"? I mean, really, it ain't rocket science. Even if you're not a "gun person", IMO, there should be NO LEO on a force that can't or won't take the time to understand the operation of a semi-auto pistol, esp. one as simple as a Glock. I'm not saying at all that revolvers are not the best choice - got no reason to disagree with you there. I just find it hard to believe that any LEO who can pass the initial testing/application process can't undertake to become functionally conversant with a semi-auto pistol! What kind of idiot can't understand one with the standard training offered? I know you can't make someone learn something they don't want to. But if the applied for the job, GOT the job, and are working as an LEO, I would think even non-gunnies could easily learn semi-auto manual of arms, even with those complicated doo-hickies (manual safeties).
 
I think the revo has it all over the semi auto for a person who has little training, and, judging from the shallow end of the gene pool they are drawing some of these misfits from, for the untrainable. This does not apply to the occasional gun nut! ;)

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 
In the good ole days the average number of shots fired was 2.8. Now it is well into double digits with a higher miss rate of course. 100+ shots fired incidents are easy to find and I get about one a month withoutlooking very hard. If anyone is serious about liability they should think about the miss rate and what is causing it.
The proper use of a semi auto is beyond the skills and available training for most. Remember you can still work if you qualify the MINIMUM and many do and have to work at that facing the "dangers" of a paper target.
My "fav" revolvers right now are my Model 15's ( I have three) and a pristine older Model 10, and a S&W 625 with a 3 inch bbl.
A few months ago a rookie saw my revolver and said, " Oh, you have one of those guns with the thing that goes around."
Depts that think the revolver is obsolete is out of synch with reality, but with range officers and instructors being allowed to teach with a year or two of total police experience, what do we expect?

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A few months ago a rookie saw my revolver and said, " Oh, you have one of those guns with the thing that goes around."
[/B][/quote]

That's a howl! Kinda scary, though.
 
One of the arguments we LEO's used when we fought for Semi-Autos was that; why should we have to stop in the middle of a gunfight and
reload? Meaning of course why are we limited to the six rounds of a revolver and then have to take a HUGE amount of time to reload? Most BG's on the street were carrying
better guns than we had. I was taught that the average puke on the street could shoot at
me at least 4 shots per second( with no training ) and that I had better have my stuff together to keep up. Spray and pray never helps only hinders.

A lot of factors take place in a gunfight; actually shooting a weapon is only one of them. Mental preparation is the key.

BTB I never see anyone offering to help the
local LEO's with their shooting program.
But I hear a lot of bitchin' from the peanut
gallery when they do something wrong.

Go ahead sponsor a shoot for LEO's or sponsor
some firearms guru to come and train the local guys...you'd be surprised at the friends you make.

[This message has been edited by bobo (edited January 26, 2000).]
 
Greetings Cana, Here is my opinion on the
issue of LEO's and revolver's. Here in the
USA when a new LEO hit's the street's for
the first time, he/she is probably best
served armed with a wheelgun. While I do
prefer semi-auto's for myself, I believe
the basic marksmanship qualities are best
obtained with a revolver, in the hands of
a new LEO. As we all know, revolver's are
capable of very fine accuracy. It takes
years of practice to get equally as well
with any semi-auto. In high crime areas,
I realize that a LEO armed with a six-
shooter is out gunned; but if they become
proficent with it's use, the result's can
be very rewarding. In our department back
in the late 90's we only had a total of 2
officer's still armed with a Smith & Wesson
wheel gun; but they could pick your eye teeth
out at distances right at 100 yards!!! After
training new officer's on the ole' trusty
.38 Special; those desiring to keep the
revolver are probably best served with
the big bore weapons such as .41 or .44
Magnum, or even .45 Colt.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Message edited by Dan H. Ford on 01-26-00
 
i have a friend with interpol who discarded his walther for a smith and
wesson revolver. his reason, in case of
a misfire he can click to the next bullet without worrying about racking the slide.
he told me he would be a deadman if that
were the case.
 
I'm not a LEO. I do carry CCW though. I have 2 autos and one revolver on it. I ...FEEL....better with the revolver. Only one reason. Even though I have never had a jam with the G30 or the BHP, I ...HAVE...had bad primers. With good factory ammo, too. Plus I am almost 60 so I cut my teeth in the days when a .38 spl was thought to be a cartridge that could kill. Of course those were the days of LEO procedures being "Stop, or I'll shoot" instead of "Stop. hey stop. hey you &^%^&$$#, stop right %$#$@%ing now or I will chase you for 18 blocks."
And last but not least, in my view a revolver is still a shootable club if needed in that function.
In our CCW renew courses, we have to identify each and every component of both types of weapons.
 
2.8 rounds then to too many now...

I read that at the time that the NYPD transitioned from revolvers to Glocks, that in the entire history of the department, no street officer had ever ran out of ammo during a gunfight!

Subsequently... we all know of the story of the poor guy who was shot at some fifty times last year- they missed him with more rounds than they used to even carry!

I carried a Glock 22 on duty. The capacity was nice, but not necessary. The "simplicity" was nice, but more complicated than a wheelgun. I am convinced that several officers on my department would have been better served with a four inch barrelled 686.

Erik
 
Here's another vote for the LEO revolver. I qualified LEOs for years. 25 years ago most LEOs were veterans and pretty motivated folks who understood cause and effect. Even though revolvers weren't state of the art I managed to raise the overall competence of almost everybody to the point where they could take very good care of themselves. Some got very good indeed. We believed in training hard, not in buying proficiency in a box. By the time the 80s rolled around we were in a PC hiring mode and every department was madly searching for the best semiauto in the universe. Of course, every agency (from one officer to a thousand) came up with a different answer--and has changed its mind regularly every few years since.

I would opt for a K frame .357 every time. The beginner and 'casual user' (translation: average cop--whether you like it or not) can use it, and the truly expert does just fine with it too. Training and mindset are the key--to hell with the gun of the week.


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