Revolvers: 7; Semi-Auto's: 5. My newest toy.
- Thread starter Nick_C_S
- Start date
My 28 year old 686 has seen a lot of full-power, light-bullet, slow-powder rounds. All the factors for flame cutting. (A practice I stopped doing years ago; and I find just silly these days - because it is. These days, I've moved to heavier bullets with medium speed propellants, that are much more "balanced" and better suited for the gun.)
Most likely, shooting IDPA power factor rounds (148g DEWC, 2.9g Bullseye) and the like, adds little to the flame cutting on the top strap.
But I'm not taking any chances. It's not the IDPA round itself that concerns me. It's the sheer volume of rounds being fired to stay in practice.
It's my favorite gun and I now consider it to be in a well-deserved state of semi-retirement. That said however, life is short, so I will still enjoy shooting it several times a year. It will outlive me
Nick_C_S said:It should take about 8 to 10 weeks
Yowzer
No one locally available to do the work? Nick_C_S said:
I have about 70k rounds through my 686, most of them "IDPA rounds", and haven't noted any flame cutting.
Flame cutting aside, though, competition can generally be tough on revolvers, which itself is a valid reason to use your 67 to prevent additional wear and tear on your 686.
I looked around here locally a little bit. But just didn't feel like putting in the effort. I know a couple people who sent theirs to Apex, and they seemed happy with the work. So I did the same.
Yes. Exactly. That's as big of a factor as any. Lots of factors pointed to it being obvious that I needed a dedicated competition revolver.
Yes. Exactly. That's as big of a factor as any. Lots of factors pointed to it being obvious that I needed a dedicated competition revolver.
Range Report
I got the gun back from having "work done" yesterday.
1) Install fiber optic front sight - awesome!
I've never shot with a fiber optic sight before. Even under a covered range, it's really easy to get sight acquisition. I can't wait to try it in IDPA in full sun - where the dot will really glow bright.
2) Chamfer charge holes - even more awesome!
I've never speedloaded with a chamfered cylinder gun. It's so nice, it almost makes speedloading unfair
.
3) Trigger action work - problem
Out of 120 rounds of Winchester primed handloads, I had 5 Failures To Ignite (FTI). So I tried CCI primed handloads, and I had 9 FTI out of 40 I went home.
I haven't written Apex Tactical yet. For starters, I already know they're going to ask "did you try factory ammo?" And even though I've been loading for 30 years - some 100,000 rounds - and I have had exactly zero FTI in that time - it's still a fair question to ask.
So I cleaned the gun then went back to the range this morning - with 100 rounds of Winchester "white box" factory ammo in tow. Yeah, 5 FTI.
If I index the cylinder back and stab the round again, it ignites (once, with the factory ammo, I had to stab it again twice before it ignited). Also, I don't know if it's occurring with the same charge hole - it may or may not be. That's probably my next experiment. I didn't have a Sharpie for marking the cylinder today.
So I don't know what the problem is. I went with the least radical trigger action job they offer, where "ignition is not compromised." Well, ignition is very compromised. They offer two action job levels beyond the one I chose - where they recommend Winchester primed or factory rounds.
Just to be clear: this is not me bagging on Apex Tactical. It would not be fair to do that. I have yet to contact them; so they don't even know there's a problem.
Any insights by my TFL family would be appreciated.
Thanks.
I got the gun back from having "work done" yesterday.
1) Install fiber optic front sight - awesome!
I've never shot with a fiber optic sight before. Even under a covered range, it's really easy to get sight acquisition. I can't wait to try it in IDPA in full sun - where the dot will really glow bright.
2) Chamfer charge holes - even more awesome!
I've never speedloaded with a chamfered cylinder gun. It's so nice, it almost makes speedloading unfair
.3) Trigger action work - problem
Out of 120 rounds of Winchester primed handloads, I had 5 Failures To Ignite (FTI). So I tried CCI primed handloads, and I had 9 FTI out of 40
I went home.I haven't written Apex Tactical yet. For starters, I already know they're going to ask "did you try factory ammo?" And even though I've been loading for 30 years - some 100,000 rounds - and I have had exactly zero FTI in that time - it's still a fair question to ask.
So I cleaned the gun then went back to the range this morning - with 100 rounds of Winchester "white box" factory ammo in tow. Yeah, 5 FTI.
If I index the cylinder back and stab the round again, it ignites (once, with the factory ammo, I had to stab it again twice before it ignited). Also, I don't know if it's occurring with the same charge hole - it may or may not be. That's probably my next experiment. I didn't have a Sharpie for marking the cylinder today.
So I don't know what the problem is. I went with the least radical trigger action job they offer, where "ignition is not compromised." Well, ignition is very compromised. They offer two action job levels beyond the one I chose - where they recommend Winchester primed or factory rounds.
Just to be clear: this is not me bagging on Apex Tactical. It would not be fair to do that. I have yet to contact them; so they don't even know there's a problem.
Any insights by my TFL family would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Not calling you a liar, but this simply does -NOT- make sense.
It's common knowledge and Jerry Miculek would be the first to tell you...
Federal primers are the softies and the ones EVERYONE with lightened revolver trigger jobs use for exactly that reason. Winchester is practically is a test-sample for "WOW, I can't believe that worked!" on a lightened trigger and CCI is even heavier and harder to ignite.
I don't know why Apex would suggest Winchester.
If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't even contact Apex (at this point), I would instead just go buy a thousand Federal small pistol non-magnum and I'd roll 300 rounds of ammo and I would EXPECT that you get 300 on the first smack of the hammer.
That... and the obvious one (but I don't want to insult your intelligence
) and suggest that you ensure the strain screw is firmly screwed down. Remember that shooting all on it's own can loosen that screw in some cases. Loc-tite is in order if this happens.You could also grab another strain screw (l-o-n-g-e-r one) and substitute it, give it a little more squeeze on that mainspring and you'll have more SMACK. (at the cost of more trigger pull weight)
Well, before making any diagnosis, it'd help to know for sure what the DA trigger pull weight is. Any idea what they set it to? Any idea whether it's actually that pull weight? Easy enough to check if you happen to have a gauge. If you don't know, I'd at least email them and ask what they set the weight to.
Does the gun still have the factory hammer? Did they swap it out for one of their DAO hammers? Or did they bob the factory hammer spur?
Did they install one of their extended firing pins and/or lighter competition FP springs?
As Sevens indicated, Federal primers are the way to go - if you're gonna run a revolver in competition, it has to be 100% no-excuses reliable. In fact, even though I run Federal primers, my match guns easily light off WWB, and even CCI primers (when fully seated).
You can test some factory Federal ammo to see if it runs that reliably. If it does (and depending on the answers to the above questions), it may just need a little extra oomph. You could try to find a longer strain screw (not sure where, though), but the easiest way to get it is to place a little shim between the base of the strain screw and the mainspring. Nothing fancy; just a piece of brass cut from a .38 case, and the same width as the mainspring.
Another trick is to replace the stock firing pin spring with one of Apex's light competition ones if Apex didn't already do that, since the FP spring rob the hammer of a wee bit of oomph. You could also cut a few coils off the stock one.
Let us know what you find out about the DA pull weight...
Does the gun still have the factory hammer? Did they swap it out for one of their DAO hammers? Or did they bob the factory hammer spur?
Did they install one of their extended firing pins and/or lighter competition FP springs?
As Sevens indicated, Federal primers are the way to go - if you're gonna run a revolver in competition, it has to be 100% no-excuses reliable. In fact, even though I run Federal primers, my match guns easily light off WWB, and even CCI primers (when fully seated).
You can test some factory Federal ammo to see if it runs that reliably. If it does (and depending on the answers to the above questions), it may just need a little extra oomph. You could try to find a longer strain screw (not sure where, though), but the easiest way to get it is to place a little shim between the base of the strain screw and the mainspring. Nothing fancy; just a piece of brass cut from a .38 case, and the same width as the mainspring.
Another trick is to replace the stock firing pin spring with one of Apex's light competition ones if Apex didn't already do that, since the FP spring rob the hammer of a wee bit of oomph. You could also cut a few coils off the stock one.
Let us know what you find out about the DA pull weight...
Here's the link to Apex's site.
http://www.apextactical.com/services.php
I didn't know Federal is the way to go with trigger action jobs. Somehow that
'"common knowledge" managed to escape me. At any rate, the level of work I had done states: "Reliable with all types of factory ammunition."
The next level up from what I got states ". . . geared towards the competitor using either factory or Winchester primed hand loads."
Federal primers aren't mentioned until their highest level trigger job, the "Hi Performance Competition/Race Grade." Which btw, until now, I never read because I wasn't interested in that level of trigger job; not to mention it's not available for the model 67.
On my way to work (which is where I am now), I stopped in my LGS, and just by coincidence, they just happened to get in a supply of Federal primers. I bought a "shoebox" (1000) of the "match grade" primers. They didn't have the regular small pistol (they did have magnums, but I knew better than to get those.) Hopefully I did the right thing by purchasing the match grade units Sevens. (??)
I agree. At this point, I am not going to contact Apex. And thank you for the info on Federal primers. It gives me hope. I just want my gun to function reliably - even if it is just a competition-only piece.
I did check the strain screw. It was tight. And it was not an insult to my intelligence to ask. It's okay to ask me the "obvious" questions. I've had many humbling experiences in my life. I locked my pride away a long time ago.
MrBorland, I'm not sure what the trigger pull weight is. Hopefully, it won't get to the point where we'll need to know. I'm hoping these Federal primers will work.
I'll load up 100 very soon; shoot them; and report back.
Addendum:
I think they did replace the firing pin spring. They gave me a little envelope labeled "Customer's Parts." In that envelope was a trigger return spring (I recognized that one), as well as another smaller - little tiny - spring. I suspect (now) that it might be the firing pin spring.
http://www.apextactical.com/services.php
I didn't know Federal is the way to go with trigger action jobs. Somehow that
'"common knowledge" managed to escape me. At any rate, the level of work I had done states: "Reliable with all types of factory ammunition."
The next level up from what I got states ". . . geared towards the competitor using either factory or Winchester primed hand loads."
Federal primers aren't mentioned until their highest level trigger job, the "Hi Performance Competition/Race Grade." Which btw, until now, I never read because I wasn't interested in that level of trigger job; not to mention it's not available for the model 67.
On my way to work (which is where I am now), I stopped in my LGS, and just by coincidence, they just happened to get in a supply of Federal primers. I bought a "shoebox" (1000) of the "match grade" primers. They didn't have the regular small pistol (they did have magnums, but I knew better than to get those.) Hopefully I did the right thing by purchasing the match grade units Sevens. (??)
I agree. At this point, I am not going to contact Apex. And thank you for the info on Federal primers. It gives me hope. I just want my gun to function reliably - even if it is just a competition-only piece.
I did check the strain screw. It was tight. And it was not an insult to my intelligence to ask. It's okay to ask me the "obvious" questions. I've had many humbling experiences in my life. I locked my pride away a long time ago.
MrBorland, I'm not sure what the trigger pull weight is. Hopefully, it won't get to the point where we'll need to know. I'm hoping these Federal primers will work.
I'll load up 100 very soon; shoot them; and report back.
Addendum:
I think they did replace the firing pin spring. They gave me a little envelope labeled "Customer's Parts." In that envelope was a trigger return spring (I recognized that one), as well as another smaller - little tiny - spring. I suspect (now) that it might be the firing pin spring.
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I should clarify: Federal primers are necessary when the action's been tuned very light. But since your gun's gotta run 100% in competition, and you're reloading anyway, it just makes sense to use Federal primers when loading match ammo, no matter how light the action's been tuned. That's pretty much why they're standard for match ammo.
Given Apex's description, I agree your gun shouldn't need to use them. I don't know why you're having issues. It certainly sounds like you ought not. It could be, though, that despite what was ordered, your action might be a wee bit too light.
If it were mine, I would get in touch with Apex. It's not a matter of expressing dissatisfaction, but more to confirm you ordered a Level II, not III action job (and actually got it), and/or see if they can tell you where they set the pull weight or the best way to proceed.
If it's a comp-only gun, and using Federal primers solves the problem, fine; but I'd still want to know the pull weight. If it's higher than 7.5 - 8lbs, it shouldn't require Federal primers. In addition, you'd not getting the benefit of a light action, but more importantly, it would indicate there's something "off" inside the gun.
Given Apex's description, I agree your gun shouldn't need to use them. I don't know why you're having issues. It certainly sounds like you ought not. It could be, though, that despite what was ordered, your action might be a wee bit too light.
If it were mine, I would get in touch with Apex. It's not a matter of expressing dissatisfaction, but more to confirm you ordered a Level II, not III action job (and actually got it), and/or see if they can tell you where they set the pull weight or the best way to proceed.
If it's a comp-only gun, and using Federal primers solves the problem, fine; but I'd still want to know the pull weight. If it's higher than 7.5 - 8lbs, it shouldn't require Federal primers. In addition, you'd not getting the benefit of a light action, but more importantly, it would indicate there's something "off" inside the gun.
In my defense 
p) I merely said I would begin checking things on my own before contacting Apex, but the suggestions/discussion does all make good sense. I don't think any of us would call them ranting & raving.
As to the Federal "Match" primers, and whether that was a good idea?
Well, me being... ME...
I would worry about the "heroin" factor. The idea that nobody should try heroin because apparently, it's that addictive. Okay, maybe that's a poor example.
What I mean is...
I wouldn't want to get myself, my gun or my loads worked up or "addicted" to those extremely expensive and not always easy-to-find primers.
So I wouldn't have bought those.
Strain screw?
I'd yank one out of one of my other Smith & Wesson revolvers and compare it's length the one in the subject gun and start there. Jerry Miculek actually cuts his screw down to the proper length to get the pull he desires. Now I'm not Jerry, and I'm not even a fraction of Mr. Borland but when either of those pistoleros do stuff, I'm listening.
p) I merely said I would begin checking things on my own before contacting Apex, but the suggestions/discussion does all make good sense. I don't think any of us would call them ranting & raving. As to the Federal "Match" primers, and whether that was a good idea?
Well, me being... ME...
I would worry about the "heroin" factor. The idea that nobody should try heroin because apparently, it's that addictive. Okay, maybe that's a poor example.
What I mean is...
I wouldn't want to get myself, my gun or my loads worked up or "addicted" to those extremely expensive and not always easy-to-find primers.
So I wouldn't have bought those.
Strain screw?
I'd yank one out of one of my other Smith & Wesson revolvers and compare it's length the one in the subject gun and start there. Jerry Miculek actually cuts his screw down to the proper length to get the pull he desires. Now I'm not Jerry, and I'm not even a fraction of Mr. Borland but when either of those pistoleros do stuff, I'm listening.
Oh, totally forgot, Nick--
The Federal primers and their "legend" of being the softest & easiest was first intro'd to me in some of the Lee reloading tools scuttlebutt back in the late 80s or early 90s when Lee & RCBS were having some of their advertising wars.
It seems that Lee specifically recommended Winchester primers because their ram priming system COULD possibly, if ham-fisted, light off a Federal primer... and because Lee was warring with RCBS/Blount, they wouldn't recommend a CCI primer.
Please keep that in mind as you prime cases, whatever your method. I've pretty much stuck exclusively to CCI over the last quarter century-plus, and my experience has shown that you can do -ALMOST- anything to these primers at the bench and they just won't light off. Federal will not offer that same safety buffer. Be careful!
Not poking fun... but as a long time handloader, I would say it's odd that you didn't know the legend of the Federal pistol primer. And yeah, don't ya -LOVE- those huge boxes they come in?!
The Federal primers and their "legend" of being the softest & easiest was first intro'd to me in some of the Lee reloading tools scuttlebutt back in the late 80s or early 90s when Lee & RCBS were having some of their advertising wars.
It seems that Lee specifically recommended Winchester primers because their ram priming system COULD possibly, if ham-fisted, light off a Federal primer... and because Lee was warring with RCBS/Blount, they wouldn't recommend a CCI primer.
Please keep that in mind as you prime cases, whatever your method. I've pretty much stuck exclusively to CCI over the last quarter century-plus, and my experience has shown that you can do -ALMOST- anything to these primers at the bench and they just won't light off.
Federal will not offer that same safety buffer. Be careful!Not poking fun... but as a long time handloader, I would say it's odd that you didn't know the legend of the Federal pistol primer.
And yeah, don't ya -LOVE- those huge boxes they come in?! An über-light Federal-only revolver action, even in a competition revolver is, IMO, highly overrated. For one thing, you lose that extra reliability insurance when you do use Federal primers. But more importantly, it's mostly* unnecessary, as matches aren't won by trigger speed. An überlight action can actually be counter-productive if you start outrunning your sights or short-stroking the trigger. That's bad mojo in a match. Still, I do think a little lightening over stock is a good thing, so long as the action's smooth. Personally, I think 7.5 - 8lbs is a pretty good balance of reliability and shootability.
I personally haven't (yet) had any detonations when reloading with Federal (or any) primers. Even so, I'm not as much worried about one happening during the priming step itself, as I am about dropping a whole primer-tube full of them into my Dillon 650. That step always gives me the jeebies.
While I run Federal primers on my revos, I run CCI primers on my AR15 specifically for their hardness. Call me superstitious, but I prefer their extra hardness as insurance against potential slamfires.
*The exceptions being master & grandmaster USPSA revolver shooters who shoot N-frames with big heavy cylinders with big heavy ammo, and can keep up with the front sight.
I personally haven't (yet) had any detonations when reloading with Federal (or any) primers. Even so, I'm not as much worried about one happening during the priming step itself, as I am about dropping a whole primer-tube full of them into my Dillon 650. That step always gives me the jeebies.
While I run Federal primers on my revos, I run CCI primers on my AR15 specifically for their hardness. Call me superstitious, but I prefer their extra hardness as insurance against potential slamfires.
*The exceptions being master & grandmaster USPSA revolver shooters who shoot N-frames with big heavy cylinders with big heavy ammo, and can keep up with the front sight.
Federal Primers - Range Report
The short version: 100 successful ignitions out of 100 !!
The detailed version:
When I got home from work last night, I loaded 100 rounds with the Federal "match grade" primers.
Took them to the range this morning and they all went off without a hitch. So at this point in time, I am completely satisfied with the work Apex has done with my revolver. It's a mystery as to the results of their work, relative to their description of it. But that's okay. I love the way the trigger action feels and it would seem that the Federal primers do the trick. I'm good to go!
Now I need to load some rounds for competition next Saturday I can't wait for the shoot. For the record, I'm not that good and only compete against myself. It's fun, first and foremost.
As far as the trigger goes, it doesn't seem excessively light to me. Of course, I only have stock S&W triggers to compare it against. It certainly is lighter than stock, but it still takes some effort.
Amazingly Sevens, in my 30 years of loading/shooting, I was unaware of the "soft" Federal primer thing. I do now. Sometimes, we learn something and go "how come I didn't already know that?" This is one of those times.
As soon as I was done shooting off the 100 rounds, I jumped in my car to my LGS and got 1000 more Fed Match primers. They had 8 boxes today (well, 7 now ), and I plan on getting another Monday (they're closed tomorrow for Easter). They have a one-box limit on primers. I tried to play dumb and buy 2 boxes today, but the really cute cashier busted me She was nice about it, and I offered to go put the extra box back where I got it. I felt crappy for trying to put one over on her.
BTW Sevens, at my LGS, the match grade primers are the same price as all the others - they're no more expensive than any other ($37.99).
For the record, I prime with a Lee Auto-Prime. I always point away and wear eye protection while priming. At my age, I need reading glasses anyway I've never had an ignition while priming; but always prepare for it.
The short version: 100 successful ignitions out of 100
!!The detailed version:
When I got home from work last night, I loaded 100 rounds with the Federal "match grade" primers.
Took them to the range this morning and they all went off without a hitch. So at this point in time, I am completely satisfied with the work Apex has done with my revolver. It's a mystery as to the results of their work, relative to their description of it. But that's okay. I love the way the trigger action feels and it would seem that the Federal primers do the trick. I'm good to go!
Now I need to load some rounds for competition next Saturday
I can't wait for the shoot. For the record, I'm not that good and only compete against myself. It's fun, first and foremost.As far as the trigger goes, it doesn't seem excessively light to me. Of course, I only have stock S&W triggers to compare it against. It certainly is lighter than stock, but it still takes some effort.
Amazingly Sevens, in my 30 years of loading/shooting, I was unaware of the "soft" Federal primer thing. I do now. Sometimes, we learn something and go "how come I didn't already know that?" This is one of those times.
As soon as I was done shooting off the 100 rounds, I jumped in my car to my LGS and got 1000 more Fed Match primers. They had 8 boxes today (well, 7 now
), and I plan on getting another Monday (they're closed tomorrow for Easter). They have a one-box limit on primers. I tried to play dumb and buy 2 boxes today, but the really cute cashier busted me She was nice about it, and I offered to go put the extra box back where I got it. I felt crappy for trying to put one over on her. BTW Sevens, at my LGS, the match grade primers are the same price as all the others - they're no more expensive than any other ($37.99).
For the record, I prime with a Lee Auto-Prime. I always point away and wear eye protection while priming. At my age, I need reading glasses anyway
I've never had an ignition while priming; but always prepare for it.
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And another Range Report . . .
Went out and practiced for IDPA for this coming Saturday.
194 successful ignitions out of 194. Amazing, those Federal primers ;-)
I've bought a total of 4 shoeboxes now ;-) I have 3500 primers remaining, since I've already loaded 500. That should hold me for at least a year.
Thanks for all your help guys! My new model 67 has already become my favorite gun to shoot.
Next stop: IDPA competition.
Went out and practiced for IDPA for this coming Saturday.
194 successful ignitions out of 194. Amazing, those Federal primers ;-)
I've bought a total of 4 shoeboxes now ;-) I have 3500 primers remaining, since I've already loaded 500. That should hold me for at least a year.
Thanks for all your help guys! My new model 67 has already become my favorite gun to shoot.
Next stop: IDPA competition.
