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Revolver or Semi in a gunfight?
- Thread starter TXAZ
- Start date
We need to define our words here
Gunfight;
What do you mean?
(a) A single mugger/robber confronts you unexpectedly in your driveway at night?
(b) You are holding your position in a crashed jeep against 30 militant criminals, --- in a ditch---with a broken leg------ in a foreign land------- with help being 20 minutes away?
(c) Anything in between A and B?
Honestly, it’s not a matter of what gun you have near as much as it is a matter of how well you can use the gun.
I think it’s reveling that when we look at shots fired to hit made, the cops today are shooting more with LOWER percentages of hits then they did in the 1970s.
In the 70s most cops carried 357 revolvers with some still using 38s. 6 shots before reloading.
Average of shots to hits in those days was pretty low, about 1 in 4. 25%
Now days the average cop carries an auto and shoots an average of 13 shots in a gun fight. Average of shots fired to hit made now is about 1 in 11. Less then 10%
Not half as good as they were 30-40 years ago.
These numbers come from 2 friends of mine that retired from a large metropolitan SWAT team in the last 3 years. They may not be spot-on, but they are pretty close.
Skill will trump equipment in nearly every case until you get yourself into something hopeless. I cannot say being super cool under fire and being armed with a 5 shot 38 is going to win the day against 100 AK-47 armed but untrained dirt farmers, so there are limits.
But in the LARGEST numbers of cases, skill and a cool head will trump equipment.
In those cases any gun will do if you can do the job with that gun.
Gunfight;
What do you mean?
(a) A single mugger/robber confronts you unexpectedly in your driveway at night?
(b) You are holding your position in a crashed jeep against 30 militant criminals, --- in a ditch---with a broken leg------ in a foreign land------- with help being 20 minutes away?
(c) Anything in between A and B?
Honestly, it’s not a matter of what gun you have near as much as it is a matter of how well you can use the gun.
I think it’s reveling that when we look at shots fired to hit made, the cops today are shooting more with LOWER percentages of hits then they did in the 1970s.
In the 70s most cops carried 357 revolvers with some still using 38s. 6 shots before reloading.
Average of shots to hits in those days was pretty low, about 1 in 4. 25%
Now days the average cop carries an auto and shoots an average of 13 shots in a gun fight. Average of shots fired to hit made now is about 1 in 11. Less then 10%
Not half as good as they were 30-40 years ago.
These numbers come from 2 friends of mine that retired from a large metropolitan SWAT team in the last 3 years. They may not be spot-on, but they are pretty close.
Skill will trump equipment in nearly every case until you get yourself into something hopeless. I cannot say being super cool under fire and being armed with a 5 shot 38 is going to win the day against 100 AK-47 armed but untrained dirt farmers, so there are limits.
But in the LARGEST numbers of cases, skill and a cool head will trump equipment.
In those cases any gun will do if you can do the job with that gun.
Average of shots to hits in those days was pretty low, about 1 in 4. 25%
Now days the average cop carries an auto and shoots an average of 13 shots in a gun fight. Average of shots fired to hit made now is about 1 in 11. Less then 10%
Not half as good as they were 30-40 years ago.
These numbers come from 2 friends of mine that retired from a large metropolitan SWAT team in the last 3 years. They may not be spot-on, but they are pretty close.
Actually, its not close, maybe on their department. For comparison look at the latest NYPD shooting a nearly 50% hit rate.
I am reporting what my 2 friends showed me about 4 years ago. THEIR source is the FBI and so I have to assume it was “pretty close.
NYPD was leading the nation in the LOWEST success rate. 50% is far too high from what I was told and shown.
I must point out that shots to hits ratio must mean that they hit the CRIMINAL. The one that want to hit. Not just "someone"!
Such is not always the case it seems.
See this;
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/
Keep in mind that there are some areas where cops shoot well as a rule and some where they don’t as a rule. There are exceptions in every area. So we are looking at averages.
You find that the areas of the nation where the "shooting culture" is highly regulated (that means suppressed) it's harder to find men that have experience in shooting well, and the big departments often are not made up of avid outdoorsmen and hunters, so shooting at anything more stimulating than paper and metal targets is not common to most of them. Again, I am saying MOST, not all.
My first notion of this was when I went through boot camp. (back in the dark ages when dinosaurs roamed the earth) I was one of only 6 men in my platoon who were not from Chicago Ill.
I shot a good high score on the range (a 245 out of 250) but our platoon came in dead last out of the 4 platoons in a training series. I did well enough to impress my Drill Instructors and my PMI, and was complemented for it, but my platoon was not very impressive as a rule. We had one kid who was from Chicago that shot a 245 the same as I did, (again you see exceptions. He also had never fired a rifle in his life before) but most barely qualified, and about 20 didn’t qualify at all and had to be “re-skidded”.
I remember thinking I did well, but I didn’t think I did better than normal. In fact I was convinced I should have shot a clean score and felt a bit of disappointment when I saw the “4s” come up from the butts instead of “5s”
Several of my buddies from high school could have shot about as well as I did, and I didn’t think it was special at that time. But I grew up as a country boy and knew a lot of other country boys that could shoot. So seeing city boys that had never touched a firearm in their lives was a bit of a shock to me. By 18 I had my 270 rebarreled and I sent a Ruger Super blackhawk back to Ruger for a new barrel too. So I was very used to shooting before I got out of highschool.
If I were to make an educated guess, I’d bet that the shots to hits ratios were MUCH better in Reno Nevada and Boise Idaho than they were in Jersey City NJ and New your City
That is not to say I am speaking from impractical knowledge of every department in the nation. It's just a guess as to how the information I was shown might break down. But it is a fact that the percentages of hits have declined over the last 40 years across the nation, not improved.
NYPD was leading the nation in the LOWEST success rate. 50% is far too high from what I was told and shown.
I must point out that shots to hits ratio must mean that they hit the CRIMINAL. The one that want to hit. Not just "someone"!
Such is not always the case it seems.
See this;
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire/
Keep in mind that there are some areas where cops shoot well as a rule and some where they don’t as a rule. There are exceptions in every area. So we are looking at averages.
You find that the areas of the nation where the "shooting culture" is highly regulated (that means suppressed) it's harder to find men that have experience in shooting well, and the big departments often are not made up of avid outdoorsmen and hunters, so shooting at anything more stimulating than paper and metal targets is not common to most of them. Again, I am saying MOST, not all.
My first notion of this was when I went through boot camp. (back in the dark ages when dinosaurs roamed the earth) I was one of only 6 men in my platoon who were not from Chicago Ill.
I shot a good high score on the range (a 245 out of 250) but our platoon came in dead last out of the 4 platoons in a training series. I did well enough to impress my Drill Instructors and my PMI, and was complemented for it, but my platoon was not very impressive as a rule. We had one kid who was from Chicago that shot a 245 the same as I did, (again you see exceptions. He also had never fired a rifle in his life before) but most barely qualified, and about 20 didn’t qualify at all and had to be “re-skidded”.
I remember thinking I did well, but I didn’t think I did better than normal. In fact I was convinced I should have shot a clean score and felt a bit of disappointment when I saw the “4s” come up from the butts instead of “5s”
Several of my buddies from high school could have shot about as well as I did, and I didn’t think it was special at that time. But I grew up as a country boy and knew a lot of other country boys that could shoot. So seeing city boys that had never touched a firearm in their lives was a bit of a shock to me. By 18 I had my 270 rebarreled and I sent a Ruger Super blackhawk back to Ruger for a new barrel too. So I was very used to shooting before I got out of highschool.
If I were to make an educated guess, I’d bet that the shots to hits ratios were MUCH better in Reno Nevada and Boise Idaho than they were in Jersey City NJ and New your City
That is not to say I am speaking from impractical knowledge of every department in the nation. It's just a guess as to how the information I was shown might break down. But it is a fact that the percentages of hits have declined over the last 40 years across the nation, not improved.
SFsc616171
Moderator
Revolver or semi in a fight?
1. Are you going to remember exactly how many rounds you have, in an unmarked magazine, that you just grabbed and shoved in your pistol?
2. Are your magazines of varying sizes, i.e., 10, 12, 13, or 15?
3. are you of the group that loads DOWN one cartridge, to avoid spring malfunctions, i.e., load 12 in a 13 round magazine?
4. I like the number '6'. It's 'not my number', but it works with a revolver, except a J-frame S and W, which is 5. You always will have '6', in a 'service revolver'.
5. I like 'springy' speedloaders. Less motor skills to train to remember. Less opportunity to yank a cartridge back out after 'twisting' it in the chamber.
6. Should the never-hope-to opportunity arise, of shoving your firearm in your assailant's gut, the revolver will go bang, whereas with most models of semi's, they won't.
7. The two most memorable (reader's choice of adjectives here) photographs, historically, of revolvers, involve one shooting incident of a traitorous assassin, and the other of a shooting of a Communist terrorist.
Both were performed at close range, as a hint.
I've shot both semi and revolver. I own both styles of firearms.
The firearm that feels more of an extension of your hand; in a caliber that you can come back on target for the duration of the box of ammunition - without hesitation; and that you can put your shots on the target where you are looking, every time, with confidence. Remember ... Wild Bill Hickok carried a .36 caliber Colt Navy 1851 6-shot revolver. he shot it every day; fresh reloads every day (which he had to measure out being a cap-and-ball revolver), and at the time required, put a bullet through a man's heart at 75 yards.
He knew his firearm. He knew how well it shot. He knew which loads performed best in the revolver. He was confident in his own skills. Those three things are the things to frame your own decision of which style of handgun you should choose.
1. Are you going to remember exactly how many rounds you have, in an unmarked magazine, that you just grabbed and shoved in your pistol?
2. Are your magazines of varying sizes, i.e., 10, 12, 13, or 15?
3. are you of the group that loads DOWN one cartridge, to avoid spring malfunctions, i.e., load 12 in a 13 round magazine?
4. I like the number '6'. It's 'not my number', but it works with a revolver, except a J-frame S and W, which is 5. You always will have '6', in a 'service revolver'.
5. I like 'springy' speedloaders. Less motor skills to train to remember. Less opportunity to yank a cartridge back out after 'twisting' it in the chamber.
6. Should the never-hope-to opportunity arise, of shoving your firearm in your assailant's gut, the revolver will go bang, whereas with most models of semi's, they won't.
7. The two most memorable (reader's choice of adjectives here) photographs, historically, of revolvers, involve one shooting incident of a traitorous assassin, and the other of a shooting of a Communist terrorist.
Both were performed at close range, as a hint.
I've shot both semi and revolver. I own both styles of firearms.
The firearm that feels more of an extension of your hand; in a caliber that you can come back on target for the duration of the box of ammunition - without hesitation; and that you can put your shots on the target where you are looking, every time, with confidence. Remember ... Wild Bill Hickok carried a .36 caliber Colt Navy 1851 6-shot revolver. he shot it every day; fresh reloads every day (which he had to measure out being a cap-and-ball revolver), and at the time required, put a bullet through a man's heart at 75 yards.
He knew his firearm. He knew how well it shot. He knew which loads performed best in the revolver. He was confident in his own skills. Those three things are the things to frame your own decision of which style of handgun you should choose.
From the article you linked. 17 shots was it? 10 hits, not bad when someone is trying to shoot you.
He reiterated that the officers appeared to have no choice but to shoot Johnson, whose body had 10 bullets wounds in the chest, arms and legs.
"I believe it was handled well," Kelly said.
I must point out that shots to hits ratio must mean that they hit the CRIMINAL. The one that want to hit. Not just "someone"!
Such is not always the case it seems.
About that NYPD hit rate.....
Here is an interesting write up from an actual NYPD officer:
http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/yxx0w/nypd_officer_ama_all_questions_regarding_12lb/
Nanuk said:For comparison look at the latest NYPD shooting a nearly 50% hit rate.
Here is an interesting write up from an actual NYPD officer:
http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/yxx0w/nypd_officer_ama_all_questions_regarding_12lb/
Tactical Jackalope
New member
If I was expecting to be in a gunfight?
My AR-15
30+1
No one ever complained about carrying too much ammo. Like SWAT or SRT. If I'm expecting it, pack the best case scenario with a bigger chance of a better outcome.
EDIT: I got distracted and didn't finish. Anyways, aside from that "expecting" comment that makes a world of a difference..
Semi auto.
My AR-15
30+1
No one ever complained about carrying too much ammo. Like SWAT or SRT. If I'm expecting it, pack the best case scenario with a bigger chance of a better outcome.
EDIT: I got distracted and didn't finish. Anyways, aside from that "expecting" comment that makes a world of a difference..
Semi auto.