Revolver handgun history question.

rrruger said:
When you look at current shooters like Bob Munden and consider that the gun design is essentially the same then it seems reasonable. The metallurgy and reliability might have changed, but not human reflexes. If a man can do it with a 'retro' model 1870's colt than why not an original model 1870's colt?
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Because NOTHING about Bob Munden's rig is remotely like what they wore and carried in the old west -- other than perhaps the caliber of the barrel. But Munden shoots wax bullets. His guns are wildly tricked out. His holster is a cut-away model with a steel liner. According to my elderly cousin, a former gunshop owner in Arizona and a student of the old west, the stories about quick draw shootouts are PURE Hollywood. The typical holster was basically a shapeless pouch that a revolver could be dropped into for transportation. Cowpokes generally carried a revolver for real threats, such as rattlesnakes. Even a nicely-executed over-the-belt holster like the "Duke" rigs worn by John Wayne in most of his movies didn't exist. The drop-loop Buscadero rigs such as worn by most of the television cowboys was created by Aarvo Ojalo.

Then look at how Munden does it. His "gun" hand is a fraction of an inch from the butt. The gun is already canted at an angle favorable for tilting up and shooting. He fans the hammer back with the opposite hand. For a cowpoke to have been able to do that, he never would have gotten a drink at Miss Kitty's bar because he'd of spent all night with both hands poised over his six shooter.
 
Prior to WW2 an FBI agent name of Jelly Bryce got REALLY good at point-shooting, literally from the hip. He was a near-supernatural prodigy, and the agency used him for solo felony arrests of the sort we'd use an entire SWAT team for today. He never lost, and had to shoot quite a bit.

Just after WW2 the agency asked Bryce to put together a formalized system and training manual to teach what he knew. The results were a disaster, killing lots of agents who could NOT do naturally what Bryce could do.

This 1961 video shows the Bryce techniques in "action":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENF4h4wLMsQ

By that time the guys at the Leatherslap competitions in Southern California had made this stuff obsolete. Jack Weaver had figured out fast sighted combat shooting, and guys like Jeff Cooper, Chapman, James Hogue, Thell Reed, Bob Munden and the rest were just starting to copy him. Cooper would eventually document it all in "The Modern Technique Of The Pistol". Leatherslap was invitation-only, because it was the first time anybody did high-speed draw-and-fire in a combat-realistic situation. They risked knees and toes with inadequate gear to learn what became modern handgun techniques. We owe them a lot...in my book, all of them were heros. They were also the ancestors of IDPA, IPSC, too many more to list.
 
The hell they did. They were shooting full-power live ammo at Leatherslap.

"Blanks at balloons" is "western fast-draw" competition based on Hollywood. Leatherslap was the first attempt at a combat-realistic shooting competition. They weren't yet doing "run and gun" like you see in IPSC and the like yet.
 
Showing my age here a bit,but I had the honor of knowing my great grandfather that was born in 1854.He died when he was 103 in 1957.

He and I used to sit and watch westerns on tv,and you would think we were watching the I Love Lucy show!! He would laugh all the way through the movie or show,saying that was all hog wash! saying the shootouts never happened like that.

He said those drop leg holsters were'nt invented till the early 1900's
and 99% of the gun fights were back shots from allys in the dark,or from up real close,like across a table.
He could'nt understand how all those naer,do wells(his words)got so popular.
He said one day they were a lawman, and the next an outlaw.
 
old west shoot-outs, real guns...

As posted, in the "real US west" very few gunfights took place & in many places no one carried firearms/sidearms the way they do in western films.
The HBO TV series; Deadwood, about Deadwood SD showed what most western towns were really like in the era.
Hip or "point" shooting was common since the revolvers were single action & had no rear(adj) type sights. I wouldn't use or suggest the "point" shooting method.
It's far better to draw & AIM a handgun rather than draw & "shoot from the hip".

CF
 
Do remember that in those days, these men and women ate, worked and slept with their guns and marksmanship was a life saving skill. I read a lot about the old west and I agree, most gunfights occurred in drunken brawls, across a barroom table or in the back by ambush. However a man who lives with his gun and shoots every day as if his life depended on it could be pretty motivated!
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Most working types including cowboys didn't carry a gun every day. Many didn't even own one. They kept them in saddlebags for the most part. They didn't shoot that much either. They used pistols mainly to kill snakes or put down an injured animal and occasionally to drive in a fence staple. Look at old pics of cowboys out on the job. You won't see many guns. Show them in a studio setting and they will be bristling with them.
 
Does any knowledgeable gun guy out there know if there were actually gunmen
in the old West who could fire a large revolver from the hip with the accuracy
shown in many Hollywood scenes, like in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly,
where Clint Eastwood blows away Angel Eyes from about 80 feet in the final
duel scene, or where Marshall Matt Dillon in Gunsmoke used to shoot a guy 50 yards away before every show?
Could men like Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill Hickok and John Wesley Hardin actually shoot that well, or is this just Hollywood BS?


Hhmmm....I don't know the answer to all the questions posed in the initial post, but I have seen feats of single-action pistol shooting done with reproduction firearms that have rivaled & sometimes exceeded what is frequently shown in movies/television, both in terms of speed & accuracy. Since such feats can be done today, I can't see why they couldn't have been done in times past.--Patrice
 
American Guns, revolver chamber....

I'd add that in a segment of American Guns, the main gun shop owner/ex-cop stated that in the "old west" many cowboys left a revolver chamber empty. They'd put a few rolled up dollars in the cylinder to cover their funeral costs if they were shot dead or killed in a gun battle. ;)

He added that the ammunition of the era was highly unstable & misfires were common.

Clyde
 
Of equal interest is what happened to the person who was shot. No one called 911, not did Matt Dillon say "Get him up to Doc's office."

Quite often the mortally wounded one was carried into the saloon to be laid out on a pool table or the bar. Or he might be given a bed in the closest "sporting" house.
He might be the center of attention until death overtook him.

I remember a quote from my parents one day of a man in the presence on another who was "fixin' to cross over."

As the fellow sat waiting, his comment was "I don't care if he do die, he warn't no good no way."

Bob Wright
 
Other than some fast draw guys firing blanks to beat a timer, did ANYONE actually shoot "from the hip", that is with the gun itself held at the side of the body and the elbow back of the torso. It seems to me a very awkward way of holding a handgun and not one conductive to either accuracy or control of recoil. But even though I pointed that out (post 5) everyone kept talking about "shooting from the hip." So, does/did anyone actually do that?

(I have seen picures and videos of the "blank poppers" leaning backwards at almost at 45 degree angle so as to get the gun out of the holster and fire, but they were not aiming and that type of "shooting" was never practical in any way.)

Jim
 
I'd add that in a segment of American Guns, the main gun shop owner/ex-cop stated that in the "old west" many cowboys left a revolver chamber empty. They'd put a few rolled up dollars in the cylinder to cover their funeral costs if they were shot dead or killed in a gun battle.
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More Hollyweird hype being passed off as fact. :rolleyes:
 
What might be called true "hip shooting," as opposed to point shooting, is still a valid technique but of very limited use. As I mentioned before, it is more in the nature of a retention technique.

Everything else is either aimed (or sighted) fire or point shooting. But point shooting itself takes several forms but they all could be described as instinctive shooting, I think. It has been taught for a long time and it's probably been somewhat controversial for most of that time. Probably most of the criticism comes from those who want to sell something different.

All of these different techniques require some practice, again there is controversy over how much. Some forms require a certain amount of aptitude, perhaps all of them. If it is signted fire we're talking about, for instance, then the one with the better eyesight should be the better shot, all other things being equal.
 
Hawg Haggen said:
I'd add that in a segment of American Guns, the main gun shop owner/ex-cop stated that in the "old west" many cowboys left a revolver chamber empty. They'd put a few rolled up dollars in the cylinder to cover their funeral costs if they were shot dead or killed in a gun battle.
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More Hollyweird hype being passed off as fact.
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I have no idea of the veracity of the dollar bill rolled up in the empty cylinder, but it is correct that single action six shooters were carried with the hammer on an empty cylinder. That was because if the cylinder was loaded, the firing pin would be resting on the primer and an accidental impact could set off the round. Remington revolvers had a safety notch between the cylinders to allow for safe carry with a full load, but Colts and others did not.

This is perpetuated even today in the rules for cowboy action shooting -- only five cylinders may be loaded. In fact, the Kenny Howell cartridge conversion cylinder made for early percussion cap revolvers only has five bored-out cylinders -- the sixth is left solid.
 
but it is correct that single action six shooters were carried with the hammer on an empty cylinder. That was because if the cylinder was loaded, the firing pin would be resting on the primer and an accidental impact could set off the round. Remington revolvers had a safety notch between the cylinders to allow for safe carry with a full load, but Colts and others did not.

This is perpetuated even today in the rules for cowboy action shooting -- only five cylinders may be loaded. In fact, the Kenny Howell cartridge conversion cylinder made for early percussion cap revolvers only has five bored-out cylinders -- the sixth is left solid.
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And that got started in the 50's after some moron shot himself in the leg and sued Ruger. There might have been a few do it back in the day but most loaded six and depended on either the safety notch or as old timers told me when I was young to let the hammer down between cartridges as per C&B's. With the firing pin between cartridge heads the cylinder can't turn. Holsters back during the day didn't have enough hammer access to let anything snag it. The Howell cylinder for .45 Colt holds five because the cylinders that fit the C&B's won't let you make six .45 holes unless you do like Kirst did and bore them on an angle. Howell cylinders for everything else hold six rounds.
 
In the old days, one very common way to carry a fully loaded SA was with the hammer down between rounds. The old percussion revolvers were better in that respect, since the Colt safety pins and the Remington hammer notches really were safe. (Oddly enough, very few of the Colt repros have safety pins, though they all have the hammer notch for them!)

The empty chamber and the $20 bill are modern ideas; the fact is that safety was not a primary consideration in the old days, even in my time.* People who carried guns, then and now, were constantly flirting with danger and didn't have the nanny state concerns with safety that we do today. Outlaws and lawmen had the attitude of combat troops - kill before you get killed and if you do get killed, tough luck!

*In high school, we used to get mercury and make our silver coins shine; can anyone imagine doing that today, even if all the silver hadn't been stolen long ago.

Jim
 
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Elmer Keith, who knew more about single action revolvers than I do, suggested an old method for safely carrying six rounds in a Colt. This is entirely from memory and his description was clearer.

This is for when the revolver is holstered. A narrow strap goes under the hammer, the firing pin fitting into a hold in the strap. It both holds the revolver securely in the holster but it safely allows six rounds to be loaded. Since the practice at the time was to cock the hammer on drawing the revolver, it would immediately release the revolver, at least he said it would. It actually sounds better than one of those rawhide thong loops over the hammer.

An issue German army military police holster for a H&K P7, I think it is, actually has one of those thong loops.
 
This is for when the revolver is holstered. A narrow strap goes under the hammer, the firing pin fitting into a hold in the strap. It both holds the revolver securely in the holster but it safely allows six rounds to be loaded.
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That should work for modern cut down holsters where an easy draw is all the rage.:D Holsters in the day were more snug fitting. Unless one was well worn in it took both hands to draw. One to hold the holster, the other to pull the pistol. That's where Hollyweird got the idea for leg ties. Holsters made from the old designs might be difficult to work with. This one does have a hammer thong because it is a loose fit made for CAS.

holsterL.jpg
 
Elmer Keith talked about all of those things, including getting the right fit for a holster. I'm not sure but I think he preferred modern things. I don't recall seeing an illustration of exactly what he was talking about with the hammer strap. I even think some of his holsters had tie-down straps but then the holsters for .45 autos had them when I was in the army. They used them when they were still making silent movies. Maybe Hollywood got the idea from the army. Those lower-hanging holsters, flapped military style or open Western style are actually quite comfortable to wear when using a separate gunbelt.

Some one referred to making a draw while holding the holster with your other hand as the "Gabby Hayes" draw.
 
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