Revolver capacity

garyl43 said:
There's a difference between the fighter jet designer, the training and practice, and when the fighter pilot actually has a sidewinder on his tail right?
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As a fighter jet designer, it's been my experience that if a fighter fails during training or practice, you can be sure that it'll fail the same way when the pilot "has a sidewinder on his tail".

In other words, revolvers fail during training and practice the same ways that they fail during a real gunfight.

Most common jam I've seen on revolvers on the qualifying range or in IDPA competition is powder debris under the ejector star locking them up.
 
Most common jam I've seen on revolvers on the qualifying range or in IDPA competition is powder debris under the ejector star locking them up.

That happened to me too, with my best revolver, Python.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Editing.
I think my Python locked up because of the close tolerances.
So did my Browning BAR 7mm. rifle while hunting in 25 below zero.
And may I add the German precis guns in WWII.........
 
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I'm trying to keep this simple folks, no war games, no combat simulations, no list of ALL recorded revolver OR auto failures. Just high stress real self defense OR criminal situations where revolvers failed to deliver.
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It would be highly instructive for you to look at a number of news stories involving high-stress real self-defense or criminal situations and see how many of those stories have detailed information on the type of gun used and specifics about how many shots were fired/whether the gun was emptied and whether or not the gun failed or didn't fail the user.

What you'll find is that the information required to answer your question is information that is only extremely rarely provided in a typical news story.

Offhand, the only incident I can recall that would meet your description was described in an article by Ayoob. The defender was using a revolver which had been equipped with a "spring kit" to lighten the trigger but that hadn't been fully tested. The defender shot the gun in DA mode during the self-defense incident and experienced a number of misfires. He kept shooting and eventually (as I recall) fired all the rounds in his gun but some only after the cylinder had made a couple of rotations.

Of course, that's not a typical news story nor typical reporting. Do those incidents happen? Sure they do. Are you going to get a good idea of how often by trying to parse typical news stories? Not a chance.
...otherwise the pool becomes an ocean.
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If you want stories about dolphins, you're going to have to accept that the stories will also be about the ocean. If you restrict the information pool to the desert, you have to accept that the dolphin stories you do get will be extremely scarce and probably not particularly representative.
 
Some of you may notice your posts have been deleted. That's because this thread is close to turning into a bickerfest and getting closed as a result. Take it as a friendly warning.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/police-quebec...xbTBkBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-rif...qcnVyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--
http://khon2.com/2014/01/24/sources-suspects-gun-jammed-while-firing-at-police/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/12/gun-jammed-in-oregon-mall-shooting-as-authorities-id-suspect/
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/clarence-williams/gun-jammed-in-virginia-college.html
http://host-46.242.54.159.gannett.c...ulson-at-the-Wesley-Chapel-Cobb-movie-theater
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132434&page=1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/12/jacob-roberts-portland-mall-shooter_n_2288479.html
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...topped-terrorist-attack-at-frankfurt-airport/
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...jam-saved-them-all-during-feltonville-arrest/
http://gothamist.com/2009/12/12/times_square_shooters_gun_jammed_be.php

http://archive.wusa9.com/news/article/94713/0/Jammed-Gun-Prevented-More-Shots-In-College-Attack
http://nypost.com/2010/02/16/survivor-professor-shot-colleagues-in-the-head-until-gun-jammed/
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Jammed-Gun-Saves-Mans-Life-123217268.html
http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/1996/06/24/161418-victim-gun-jammed-led-to-injuries/
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...atal-shootings-shooting-deaths-police-custody
http://www.nj.com/news/times/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-16/1241150728301300.xml
http://amandala.com.bz/news/jammed-gun-saves-life-belizean-calderitas-chetumal/
http://www.pressherald.com/2012/12/24/rifle-jam-may-have-saved-lives_2012-12-24/
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8f_1403601113
http://www.cbs46.com/story/19279113/tire-shop-worker-saved-by-jammed-gun
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/03/13/gun-jodi-used-jammed-forensic-expert-believes

I could go on and on but not worth the time. I did find a revolver failure though!

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/weird/Jammed-Gun-Keeps-Wife-80-From-Killing-Husband-231558531.html

I did include a couple high profile rifle cases like Jessica Lynch, Aurora and Sandy Hook because I came across them and found them interesting. I didn't repeat any of the Youtube videos I posted earlier even though I came across a couple of them.
 
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revolver capacity

OK. I'm one of the old men here. Carried for over 40 years. First was a Python 4" 357 mag while I was on the Police Reserves. 12 yrs ago I bought a semi and was super happy with the extra ammo until I had my first jam. After my 3 jam
I sold it and went back to Revolvers. I only carry 357's and always have a speed loader with me at all times. If I need more than 6 shots I'm i big trouble. If I need more than 12 shots I'm probably dead. Yes, I agree that most encounters are within 5-7 yards. That's what i usually practice at. Occasionally I go up to 20 + yards. In all these years I've only once drew my weapon. What I'm trying to say is that it's insane to have to have a mag that hold 20 shots and no guarantee that it will not jam.
Most of the people on this site are pros or very close to being a pro. If I'm wrong, tell me why and I'll look at it carefully.
 
Most common jam I've seen on revolvers on the qualifying range or in IDPA competition is powder debris under the ejector star locking them up.
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This.

The other night I was cleaning my Ruger GP100 and once I was done, the cylinder wouldn't close. I checked under the ejector star and sure enough... there was a TINY piece of plastic that scraped off my bronze brush that found it's way under there.

Even one small thing like that, and the revolver is tied up.

Not so with a Glock.
 
The articles highlight the difficulty of collecting accurate (and therefore useful) data about firearm malfunctions from news stories.
http://news.yahoo.com/police-quebec-...dxMQR2dGlkAw--
<<Does not state whether the handgun was a revolver or autopistol. One could assume it was an autopistol but there's no way to tell for certain from the story. Actually, the story just says the "gun" jammed. It might have been the shooter's rifle that jammed.>>
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-rifl...dxMQR2dGlkAw--
<<Semi-auto rifle jam>>
http://khon2.com/2014/01/24/sources-...ing-at-police/
<<Does not state handgun type explicitly. One must make assumptions to use this as a data point. >>
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/12...es-id-suspect/
<<Semi-auto rifle jam>>
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/cri...a-college.html
<<Rifle jammed. Article does not specify the action type, only the manufacturer and caliber (Marlin .30-06--most likely a bolt action rifle assuming the article is correct in the details).>>
http://host-46.242.54.159.gannett.co...-movie-theater
<<The article does not state the handgun type. From other sources, I THINK I recall reading it was a semi-auto.>>
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=132434&page=1
<<Does not state weapon type. Since she was military, we know it was a semiautomatic but don't know if it was a rifle or pistol. From other sources I think I recall reading it was a rifle.>>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2288479.html
<<Semi-auto Rifle. I believe this is a repeat of a previous link.>>
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...kfurt-airport/
<<The article does not explicitly state the handgun type but I believe the context makes it safe to assume that it was a semi-auto.>>
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...nville-arrest/
<< The article does not explicitly state the handgun type but I believe the context (comment about a stovepipe) makes it reasonably safe to assume that it was a semi-auto.>>
http://gothamist.com/2009/12/12/time..._jammed_be.php
<<Clearly a semi-auto based on stated capacity.>>
http://archive.wusa9.com/news/articl...College-Attack
<<Jammed rifle. Does not state action type. I believe this is a repeat of a previous link--the one with the rifle that was likely a bolt action.>>
http://nypost.com/2010/02/16/survivo...il-gun-jammed/
<<Does not state handgun type and there isn't sufficient context to determine it. I think from other sources I recall that the handgun was a semi-auto Ruger.>>
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local...123217268.html
<<No information provided about action type of handgun.>>
http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/199...d-to-injuries/
<<States the action type (semi-auto) and make (Glock). This is an unusually detailed article because it is about a lawsuit, not a typical self-defense/criminal shooting article.>>
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...police-custody
<<Clearly a semi-auto based on stated capacity with the caliber providing additional information.>>
http://www.nj.com/news/times/regiona...0728301300.xml
<<Clearly a semi-auto based on the fact that the shooter tried to retrieve an ejected shell after the shooting.>>
http://amandala.com.bz/news/jammed-g...itas-chetumal/
<<No information on handgun type.>>
http://www.pressherald.com/2012/12/2...es_2012-12-24/
<<Semi-auto rifle.>>
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8f_1403601113
<<The handgun can be seen in the video to be a semi-auto.>>
http://www.cbs46.com/story/19279113/...-by-jammed-gun
<<Does not provide any information about handgun type.>>
http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/03/1...xpert-believes
<<Does not provide any information about handgun type.>>
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Out of 22 links.

  • 6 were about rifles--one rifle was likely a bolt-action rifle, not a semi-auto.
  • 2 did not provide enough information to know for sure if the jam was in a rifle or a handgun although one of these was definitely a semi-auto regardless of whether it was a rifle or handgun.
  • 7 provide no information about the handgun type and insufficient context to determine the type.
  • 2 more provide enough information to make it reasonable to assume that the weapon was probably a semi-auto handgun.
  • The rest either make it absolutely clear from the details that the handgun was a semi-auto or explicitly provide that information.
So of the 14 links that were definitely about handguns, 7 of them don't provide enough information to be able to be certain of whether the handgun was a revolver or semi-auto. Pretty tough to draw solid conclusions when half the data points can't be classified for certain and therefore the data set relies heavily on assumptions made by the researcher.

Information gathered from range incidents is much more likely to be reported in sufficient detail to be useful. It may not be as sensational, but if accuracy is the point, it's going to be a lot more valuable.

By the way, I am NOT arguing that semi-autos are just a reliable as revolvers or that revolvers jam as much as semi-autos. Just pointing out the vagaries of relying on the press for detailed information about firearms.
 
The articles highlight the difficulty of collecting accurate (and therefore useful) data about firearm malfunctions from news stories.
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You got that right! Anybody who has ever been featured or quoted in any type of news article knows first hand that they almost never get it right, sometimes slighty wrong, sometimes so worng that you wonder if they were reporting the same story you were involved in, but always wrong to some degree. Even when I write the story myself, and submit it, they still edit it into being wrong!
 
I like my revos well enough, but come on... SIX rounds to win a fight??

When I can get SIXTEEN in my Glock 19, with as much power as .357 with modern 9mm loads, what is the point??

Test after test after test shows the Glock to be an extremely reliable gun.

Face it, the revolver is dead for personal defense or law enforcement use. I LOVE my Colt Python, God knows I do, but I would NEVER carry it if I was expecting trouble.
 
Here's a case where a revolver wouldn't have been enough:

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/52402-hows-stopping-power-22-hits-40s-w-still-alive.html

Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream.
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in situations like that revolver people will say that he needed to be hit harder, automatic people will say he needed to be hit more times. Which do you think it is?

I would argue that in cases where its 1 guy that his hopped up on adrenaline or drugs that harder hitting is better. Where I feel the automatic shines is when being attacked by multiple people.

In the end all handgun are not ideal and if the opportunity presents it self I would hope I would have access to a shotgun or a rifle.
 
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