Revisiting the Bernard Goetz scenario

I am a native New Yorker, & I didn't need to read the whole thread.

You can not run away on a moving subway train, even being carefull
subways in the 80's were very dangerous.
Those thugs were out for blood, at that time young black men simply mugged white people for sport. For entertainment.
I hung out with a mostly black and Latino "crew" @ the time, one time a black guy in his thirties had a beef with one of us and all 10 guys I was having a beer with jumped him, I almost got jumped because I didn't join in!
They didn't "fight fair" they pummeled the guy into unconcisious for enjoyment.
They went overboard and didn't stop until the guy was knocked out, with teeth missing and probably broken bones.
They laughed about it for weeks!

"You got 5 dollars?" depending on how you say it, it can be very threatening, it was absolutely a set up, surround the guy and no matter what he says or does co operates or not , he gets stomped.
It was called "vicking" not mugging by the guys that did it all the time (from victim )

Goetz was doing what every newyorker, black or white wanted to do to the thugs roaming the streets and subways in those days.

As for plugging the thug after the threat stopped, thats the law of the urban jungle, what goes around comes around.
If you live by the sword and all that, Goetz had enough, if you're constantly beat down and NEVER GET ANY JUSTICE from the "system" you might just snap.

I really enjoyed the lull in harrasment when Goetz was on the run, you could ride the damm train without getting mugged and beaten up on.
 
THRGUNSMITH:

Now you see why the court ruling, which allows Monday morning quarterbacking on such situations is so dangerous.

We have posters here that can't remember, or conceive of places or situations like that. Think of how hard it's going to be for a judge, or prosecutor, that never faces those situations, living in their high income, ivory towers.

Are New York Appellate judges in for life? From reading their opinion, it's really clear they had no idea what goes on in the subways at that time...
 
thrgunsmith & Socrates:

I am a native New Yorker as well, and ANYONE who criticizes Bernie for his actions has absolutely NO IDEA of what it was like back then, or even today for that matter. You are sheltered beyond belief, and have no clue of how lucky you are to not know what life is like when you face animals like those "kids" day in & day out.

These were not innocent kids, just having a fun time & nicely & politely asking for handouts.

These were not normal high school students, just out for a stroll and accidentally running into a mad man at the wrong place and at the wrong time.

These were vicious, ruthless, criminal thugs, out for blood and mayhem, period.

I saw part of his interview, and he said it exactly as it was: "When they asked me for the $5, I looked in their eyes and I knew exactly what their intentions were."

Believe me, I have been faced with this exact scenario a few times myself, both on the bus and on the subway, and things are 100,000 times better today than it was back then. Each time I was lucky when I fought back (I consider a bruise on the back of my head from a punch and shaken nerves for a few weeks to be lucky compared to getting stabbed). And believe me, not a juror in the world would have convicted me if they had been in my shoes and I had had a gun & shot them.

One of the times, I was 14, surrounded by about 20 animals like these on a city bus, when one tapped me on the shoulder and told me to give him my leather coat. Another one blocked the exit door, another one stuck his hand in my right pants pocket (my money was in my left, hahaha), and another punched the back of my head.

If I had a gun, I would have shot them, no doubt, for I was in fear for my life. I still don't know to this day how I scared them enough (or made them respect me enough) for the one blocking the door to move out of the way, and for the first one I mentioned to let go of my coat tails as I exited and growled "GET THE F*CK OFF MY COAT!!!" because he was grabbing it and trying to pull me back onto the bus, or at least to keep my coat..

This was in the days of Koch as Mayor, when NYC was a cesspool of filth and violence and robberies and muggings and all kinds of indescribable acts against law abiding innocent victims. Hookers on every corner, pornshops as far as the eye can see, day in and day out unending predation on the innocent. Most of you have probably never even seen what the subways looked like back then...inside & out was one giant graffiti covered outhouse. It was the territory of the animals, and they ran it with impunity. It was so bad that the Guardian Angels were formed to try to do something to potect people.

Bernie knew very well what these animals were planning on doing, and thanks to him at least one of these turds won't ever hurt anyone again. In fact, subway crime went down immensely after this shooting, so he is a hero to many.

Years later, one of these thugs was re-arrested for something. They were predators, plain & simple. Before, during & after that day.
 
scrap

Thank you for articulating what I was trying to convey, its one of the reasons I won't return to NYC until we win back the 2nd Amendment.
 
Actually I deal in situations like that way more then I would like. My job as a bball ref takes me into some places I shouldn't go, and, Oakland and Richmond are a couple of murder capitols of the world. I also teach in any area with a huge transplanted thug population. Today I was going to the office, and, on my way out a Mexican kid said something very much like what we are talking about:

"He asked me....and before I could answer, his friend punched me."

Blood was all over, streaming down his face from a very bad bloody nose. He was lucky.

BART is used by the Oakland drug dealers to go into San Francisco area and peddle, since you have a better then even chance with a jury of being acquitted on ANY charge.

Have one friend's mother that was attacked by a guy using a knife. The guy got a directional cane of pepper spray in the face, and was picked up by the BART police.

Whatever. Goetz was right, but should have been quiet about it...
 
The biggest problem with these debates is not with the shooters, but with us, and our perspective.

I'm at home right now. My wife is cooking dinner. The mutts are at my feet. I have a verylight work load for tonight. Ahhh, life is good.

How can my opinion possibly take into account the abject fear, terror, the law, being shredded by the press, jail time, etc,...

I'm at home, warm and safe.

My guess is that most of you are in the same position. However, if I surrounded you with four guys I ride with, and they taunted you, and convinced you that injury was eminent I'll bet some of you would make Goetz look like a choir boy.

An equal number of you would run like a little girl.

Mr. Goetz's actions derive from a singular event when he was in a singular state of mind. Insane or not, it is my belief, from my safe home, that he got hosed.
 
Yep, if you haven't experienced it first hand, to know what it is like to always know that at any given moment, 24 hours of every day, that you can be assaulted, robbed, stabbed, raped, etc. etc. then you have no right to judge him; you are not his peers.

Live with that REAL fear every minute of every day, wondering if every time you leave your house, you may not come back in one piece, and not just because you heard a story here & there, but because you witness it day in & day out, have close friends & family members go thru it, see the animals all around you on every street you walk on.

Truly, truly walking thru the valley of the shadow of death. Not in your paranoid mind, but in reality.

Spend every moment of your life like that, learn firsthand exactly how they operate, see it starting to happen to you, wonder with good reason if you are going to die in a moment, and then tell me you would not shoot every last one of those bastards.

That was his reality.
 
Scrap5000 said:
That was his reality
Click to expand...

There's that word again, "reality."

I've been scared so bad at times I'm lucky I could hold onto my bowels. I've been so mad at other times that I really saw red, like the room was bathed in red neon. I cannot switch it on or off. It's just fight or flight.

The mind is an odd thing. As I told Playboy, I shut the computer off this afternoon. I was a bit miffed. About twenty minutes later I was going axle to axle with crowded Interstate traffic, mirrors within inches of my elbows--and I exhaled in total relaxation.

How come a man seethes at a computer screen and calms down amid spinning Kenworth wheels?

I hope I never have to face the scenario that Mr. Goetz faced--either way. If I ran like a little girl, I would disgrace myself. If I stood my ground I'd be in court--both criminal and civil--for months on end, and well into bankruptcy. If I screamed an epithet in anger I would be branded a racist forever.

Nobody should have to face that.
 
yeah I remember reading about the terror on the streets of New York caused by all of those low life criminals..and to make it against the law for good people to have a weapon to defend oneself, especially in that type of environment, is akin to a human rights abuse
 
One more time: words by a bad guy, in the act of committing a crime are worthless.
Click to expand...
On the contrary, words by a badguy in the act of committing a crime are usually quite indicative of what he wants/expects. And Goetz would have lost nothing in the overall context of the event if he had given them the $5 (other than $5).
wait, it just dawned on me, you don't know what wonderful folks these guys were. Here, from the same Wikpedia article:
Click to expand...
First, Wiki is far from a reliable source on lots of stuff, but even given the Wiki, perhaps I missed it. Had they stabbed, shot, beaten or such any other victims of their robberies??? Or perhaps there was a nice long history of successful actions just like they did with Goetz? Let's face, asking for $5 is more typical of the minor panhandling gig than a violent attack.
As soon as they acosted Goetz, prints go into the system, and, they start matching up for unsolved robberies and rapes...
Click to expand...
So what you seem to be suggesting is that these guys had some strong incentive NOT to push an attack on somebody, given all the witnesses on the scene that could ID them.

Look, the badguys were badguys, but given Goetz’s own actions and statements he wasn’t much of a good guy either.
 
Close as I can put it is, Goetz sounds like someone with post traumatic stress disorder, and fools that don't recognize it, judging him... I would never talk about our members that way, so, you know I'm talking about DA's, and judges, never living that life, and passing judgement.

Does that sound familiar to any of the posters here?

Dr. S
 
So what you seem to be suggesting is that these guys had some strong incentive NOT to push an attack on somebody, given all the witnesses on the scene that could ID them.
Click to expand...

Criminals routinely get linked to unsolved crimes when they are arrested for current crimes. Fear of being linked to one crime is not and has never been a deterrent to commiting another crime.

As for judging people, it's great to recognize that most of us haven't been in situation A or situation B. It's great to acknowledge that we are arm chair quarterbacking.

It's important to acknowledge that both of those facts will apply to any judge or jury (and even many investigating officers) who will do the same thing if we are ever in such a situation.
 
regarding the original question, i believe the rule of thumb when confronted by multiple attackers is to turn and run. if they pursue you the odds are pretty slim they'll reach you at the same time. in this way you can deal with them one at a time - whichever one is the fastest runner first. and if they don't pursue you then you avoid the conundrum.
Click to expand...
Or you may just catch a bullet in the back. They've already proved themselves too lazy to work, why shouldn't you believe they're too lazy to chase you?

I've never had a problem with Bernie. Personally I think he was railroaded. To you native New Yorkers, best of luck getting your rights back. As for me, I live too close in proximity to the same type of thing. I don't plan to be here forever. But I will also always do my best to protect myself and mine. My neighborhood has already twice had to take our streets back. I'm sure it will happen again.
 
lol. i guess you missed my point. the point is:

1) it's easier to deal with 4 people who are, for example, all south of you than 1 each on your north, south, east and west sides

2) the more distance between oneself and multiple attackers, the narrower the field of sight one will need to maintain in order to watch them all

3) if moving out of the center, they can't all be closest, so presumably the one closest will pose the most immediate threat, and should be dealt with first.

anyway, i know nothing about such things, so i'm just talking out my hat.
 
????

sounds like most have no idea about criminals and what its like to be on a subway car now a days.I used to carry my balsa wood airplains to meets in boston.would I now?are you crazy?the gangs that prowl the public transportation are animals.most of you would be killed,armed or not.because you would hesatate and think about the results as you were dying.gun men used to just want your money.now they kill you and then take your $2.:rolleyes:::(
 
One guy did have an ice pick or some sort of weapon on him. I think that his mistake was to "gloat" during his emotional statements to the NYPD.

I wasn't there but to think that they weren't a threat to him is ludicrous.

I believe his ordeal stemmed from POLITICS - racial (don't cry racism on this one because I'm "Black") and otherwise. His statements which I recall didn't assist him either.

The shooting: the human startle response will produce a pause or paralysis response to those not accustomed to gunfire. So they were stationary for perhaps two or three shots before they would attempt to flee for cover or return fire.

I don't know how I would have proceeded; probably just has he did. It's very difficult to predict. One could say, "Road House Rules": everyone gets one before anyone gets two. Well, if they don't move that may be true. I cannot provide you any meaningful response here.

Watch your 6
 
I'm just curious, but doesn't the bad guy seeing your gun and running away count as neutralizing the threat, at least as it pertains to self defense? At least one of those he shot was in the back if I recall correctly.

In war, letting them run away is not good because they will redeploy to fight you again later. But in SD, it is usually considered a taboo to shoot someone in the back who is running away from you.
 
Close as I can put it is, Goetz sounds like someone with post traumatic stress disorder, and fools that don't recognize it, judging him...
Click to expand...

Good luck in getting off on a shooting by claiming PTSD. That is indeed a most difficult defense to make.

I don't think that many here are judging Goetz to the point of making him about to be a bad person. It is not a matter of whether he was "good" or "bad".

I think it is more that Goetz hurt himself by some of his own actions. Certainly talking so much with the police was a dumb move on his part. I know that if I am ever in a self-defense shooting, I am going to get a lawyer immediately. That is the smart thing for anyone to do.

Likewise, making those racial slurs years before was very dumb also. Just look at how the words of Mark Fuhrman were used by OJ's defense team in his murder trial. It diverts attention from the central issues, and raises concerns about whether the person's real motivation was racial.

If Goetz had never made the racial remarks, and had immediately demanded to have a lawyer, he would be better off than he is today.

Remember that during his confession to police, Goetz made this statement about himself: "I was a monster".

And his second shot into Darrell Canby certainly is difficult to defend. That second shot is what cost him dearly in the civil lawsuit, as it was the one that struck him in the spine.

And he shot two, not just one, of the criminals in the back.

.
 
Last edited:
I don't know about that. I've been in the middle of two fights in two days, after getting the police to walk me to my car...and last night couldn't sleep...

Problem is, I don't think people realize the stress such situations put you under. I had kids in San Francisco that had to go across 4-6 other gangs territories to get to school.
With the adrenal dump they would get just trying to survive getting to school, and home again, it's a miracle they learned anything. Some of them would just pass out, and go to sleep, and you couldn't really wake them up.

I think this is part of the keep your mouth shut problem Goetz had...

Also, Goetz shot so fast, when he started to shoot, I'm sure all of the guys were coming at him. However, once commited, and getting off 5 shots in less then 2 seconds, the possibility that a target started facing you, and, is going to react to the blast and turn is highly likely. Similar stuff happens in police shootings, and everyone understands it, except people that haven't interviewed officers after shootings, or been through such stuff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top