Response from CZ to request for new 10mm

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DougB

New member
I sent CZ an e-mail requesting that they produce a new 10mm pistol - either a 10mm version of their .45, or preferably, a compact, light weight 10mm (sort of a PCR on steriods). Here is their very polite, but disappointing response:


Dear Doug,

We have looked at the 10mm, the numbers for a project like that just aren't there. Just to change the caliber in the current pistol would require a completely different top end. Other companies casually make conversions like this and also have bad reputations. We maintain our good rep by not doing the wrong things or doing things badly.

As for making a completely new pistol from scratch in this cal. it would be financial suicide.

I am afraid that the 10mm is not in the stars for CZ right now.

Thank you for your input.

Respectfully

Martin Bordson
CZ-USA
 
Marty, Mike and the rest of the small crew at CZUSA will shoot straight with you...pun intended. :D H*ll, I cant even get a
.40 Carry Compact and its been advertised in gun rags...go figure.
Shoot well
 
I got a much vaguer response. You must seem more professional:





Sorry they come out with new stuff every year. Not this year though. Sorry

CZ-USA
P.O. Box 171073
Kansas City, KS 66117-0073
phone: 913-321-1811
 
"***the CZ97 platform would be perfect for the 10mm."


Agreed.

And with CZ's superior quality-control at the factory and attention to all the little details, a 97B in 10mm would easily surpass the Witness as the legitimate heir to Bren Ten, the original 10mm pistol built from the CZ platform.
 
Glock had their 10 mm design out before the catridge "died", so the machine tools, molds, and measurement devices were already paid for.

Ditto the S&W semi-autos.

Not sure about EAA.
 
Funny how it hasn't been financial suicide for Glock, EAA, S&W...
Click to expand...

I disagree. Looking at the S&W catalog, they only catalog a single 10mm and that's a REVOLVER!!! As was correctly pointed out earlier, EAA and Glock tooled up for the gun Before it dropped from favor. S&W made the correct decision after having failed to make durable semi-autos to discontinue the whole line. From what I understand, the EAA gun isn't too much to speak of from a durability standpoint either. The Glock and Bren are the only two guns I know of that are made right.
 
Think I forgot the Colt.

Forgot to mention also that the 45 Super is made by nearly every major gun manufacturer and it's superior to the 10mm in everything but capacity. Hell, if you can't kill 'em with 15 rounds, you shoulda started RUNNING!!!
 
10mm hasn't gone anywhere. It's caried by several law enforcement agencies.

It's the best semi-auto round for hunting if you'd like to pack your Glock, EAA Witness, or the like.

And for self defense, its a great cold weather round.

The rep just got around that its a snot stompin round and too many shooters are just too chicken spit to try it out. And some gun dealers fall in line.

You can find them new and used around Seattle. They're just not as popular as 9mm or 45 ACP.

And you should be a reloader before you go 10mm. Look at the ballistics.

And forget the CZ for 10mm. Get a Glock 20 and be happy.
 
"S&W***failed to make durable [10mm] semi-autos***."


Oh, bullcrap. Yet another uninformed, 10mm-hating opinion being pawned-off as gospel.

S&W 10mms were the most durable autoloaders made for that caliber. Numerous endurance tests proved their durability, such as when Frank James, in just 6 1/2hours, ran 10,000 rds of hot Winchester STHP 175gn 10mm ammo thru a 1006. Only 6 malfunctions - all found to be ammo related. (See, 1991 American Handgunner Annual, Vol. 46, pp. 78-82).

Another example is the Calif. Hwy. Patrol's 5,000 rd "durability" testing of several 10mm pistols. The Smith 1006 was the only 10mm gun that passed without any malfunctions or parts breakage. See my last post in the following thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95928

Please. Have a clue before you post. :rolleyes:

By the way, used S&W 10mms absolutely refuse to loiter long on dealers' shelves. Wonder why?
 
S&W's reason for dropping the 10mm was that a much larger percentage of 10mm's were being returned for service and several departments were complaining that their guns weren't standing up. Not every gun will experience problems but percentages were high. The citation you make is from over a decade ago was when agencies were still buying the 10mm.

As for the CHP test... you're trying to prove my point. That the 1006 was the only gun that the 10mm round did NOT eat up is precisely the reason that the round has dropped from favor.

The 1006 was the flagship of the 10mm craze. It was built on the 4506 with little change to the design. The 10mm operates at much higher pressure and with higher slide velocities therefore beating up guns. My 4516 has stood up well over the years and the design is sound... for a 45.

Responding to facts and informed opinions with a FLAME does not help your case any.
 
"Responding to facts and informed opinions, ...***"

What facts?

You provided none. :rolleyes: Your quoted statement in my earlier post was, therefore, uninformed, baseless opinion, as I indicated. Nothing personal, and certainly eveyone is entitled to their opinion. But when you throw out broad claims, expect to get called on it.

Since I furnished documentation in my previous post, the burden of proof is now with you (and the facts I provided don't grow stale with age, contrary to your claim): ...

"*** A much larger percentage of [S&W] 10mms were being returned for service***"

Please provide verifiable documentation to support this - and specifically what % of Smith 10mms (by individual model #, i.e., 1006s, 1066s, etc) were returned, and by whom, and on what date(s)? (I'm quite aware of the FBI's problems with the specs they insisted on in their 1076s, as well as the details of Smith's correction of the problem, and how the "fixed" 1076's were later re-issued to field agents, so you can skip the FBI-1076s in your response documenting the above).

"***several departments were complaining that their guns weren't standing up."

Again, please provide verifiable documention of such complaints (again, other than FBI-issued 1076s). "Several departments"? What LEAs/PDs are you referencing? And how did you determine "the much larger percentage" of 10mms allegedly returned for service (i.e, out of what total number? Only LE Smith 10mms? Or, are you also including in your vague claims civilian sales of Smith 10mms? And what is the source of this number?)

"Not every gun will experience problems,***"

True.

"***but percentages were high."

That's not what the published experiences of those reporting on the Smith 10mms say (FBI-1076s excepted), ... but, of course, you're going to provide us with verifiable documentation of that last statement, right?

"As for the CHiP tests, *** [you] prove my point."

How does the fact that the Smith 1006 survived the reported endurance tests (for which I supplied references) "PROVE" your point that S&W (in your words) "failed to make durable [10mm] semi-autos"? It doesn't. :rolleyes:

By the way, my 1076 is heading well into 3,000+ rounds. Stiffer springs and shock buffs will subdue "high slide velocities." In fact I'll probably be out shooting it this weekend, while you're out getting together references to provide us for your statements above. :)
 
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faded glory

The 10 mm is an excellent round but it has unfortuniately fell from favor with the masses as has another favorite of mine---the 41 mag.
With full-power loads, the 10 mm is perhaps the most powerfull round that can be had in a reasonable-size carry weapon.
The 10 is now regulated to a "niche" market for sales as fewer manufacturers support it. Factory ammo of course also has suffered in choices.
This has been more or less dictated by the market in sales. The 10mm is an awsome defensive round that now is being promoted as an "outdoor" type round.
 
.45 Super vs. 10mm Auto....

Well, this is really developing into a nice sh#t (and the letter that's meant to be there is between h and j in the alphabet) slinging contest, hasn't it.

But for agtman, here's some good points:

In Shooting Times/Handgun Quarterly, the July/august edition of 1990(why oh why do I keep these things) in an article by one Charles Petty, is a listing of the S&W 1076 as designed and built for the FBI. In such, it is reported that in the 1006, while based upon the 4506, had some improvements made to the frame and slide to handle the higher recoil experienced by the 10mm. Since the 1006 was the tap root of the S&W 10XX line, the rest of the series also included these same basic design characteristics. This seems to dismiss the comment that the 10XX series was nothing more than the same 45XX series, except for the 10mm caliber change.

Factory ammo, while not as wide spread as the .40 S&W or .45ACP, is considerably more available and plentiful, in a wider array of loadings by more manufacturers than that of the .45 Super. A simple search of the "non-speacialized" commercial ammunition manufacturers easily provides this information.


For the .45 Super

While the dimensions of the .45ACP and that of the .45 Super are identical, thus allowing manufacturers of ammunition and firearms an easier path of possible production, the same increased velocity/recoil/energy cycle experienced by the 10mm is also present in the .45 Super. As support of this, a quick read of this site may be in order:

http://www.texas-ammo.com/45super.htm

Also, before anyone may think otherwise, special brass of heavier construction and dimensional design is required for the .45 Super.

After reviewing the various sites that mutiple search engines returned regarding the .45 Super, the only tangible advantage that I could ascertain was that of the ability to shoot either .45ACP or .45 Super loadings through the same firearm(one constructed for .45 Super pressure/recoil) without having to change any barrel or recoil springs. This may be suspect if some easier recoiling SWC targert type loading are used in .45ACP, owing to the heavier recoil spring configuration required for the .45 Super.


Hey, don't get me wrong, as I like the availability of both the 10mm(admittedly, one my personal favorites) and that of the .45 Super(gotta like the .38 Special/.357 Mag-like capability) to .45ACP dual package. My question to Badger Arms is; Why the attitude against the 10mm? At least make a good case with supported, verifiable sources.

Hmmm, could you really be Hardin in another guise?

Jeez guys, give it a break!
 
Oh, bullcrap. Yet another uninformed, 10mm-hating opinion being pawned-off as gospel.
Click to expand...

:eek:GEEZZ! Some of you 10MM fans are a little sensitive!:eek:

Now, I'll admit I've never owned or shot a 10MM, There isn't any "hate" involved, just a lack of interest. For that matter, I've never shot or owned a 9MM either - same reason.

But I think the lack of guns chambered for 10MM can probably be traced to the same reason for the lack of guns in 41Mag (which as of 2 weeks ago I do own!), and that is they simply are not as popular as other calibers. That probably had something to do with the FBI & the .40S&W, but I think "hate" might be stretching it.
 
Yeah? Well my 10mm can beat up your .45 Super!:rolleyes: :p


I love my G20 10mm. Many shooters don't like the 10mm, and hate the hot loads, because they're afraid of recoil. The fbi couldn't get their wussies, I mean agents, to shoot well with the 10mm. (Buncha girliemen:barf: ) The suits at the top decided to order the 10mm ammo with less powder in the case because the powderpuff girls said that was the only way the 10mm could be tamed. Then they complained that the reason they couldn't shoot with the 10mm was because the guns were too big for their dainty little wussygirliemen hands. Smith & Wesson shortens the 10mm case, puts the "new" round in a smaller 9mm sized gun and the fbi wussies, er, agents say everything will be all better. Except that many still can't shoot well.:rolleyes: Then the hrt says that the .40 Short & Weak isn't able to do the job. They need a custom 1911 in .45 ACP.:rolleyes:
 
AGTman, you have way too much pent-up animosity for me to engage in a serious discussion with you. Nor will I respond to a your flaming me twice this thread. Enough said.

NVRquit, No, I'm not Hardin, thank God for my children. I wasn't aware that I had any attitude toward the 10mm. My previous post was responding to a flame. In fact, I like the 10mm. I'd rather carry a 10mm than a 9mm, 40, or 45, or pretty much any other full-sized automatic out there. My point is that it's only been successfully chambered in two or three guns compared to literally dozens for the aforementioned calibers.

My preferred full-size carry gun is the Colt 1991 with some customization work. I often carry a .357 Magnum as my car and Travel gun. My compact carry guns vary depending on my mood. The 10mm is easy to control for me, accurate, and packs a punch equaled by few rounds. I would BUY one if they made it in a gun other than the Glock (which I feel is too large for my wife and children to shoot).

Were I to design a 10mm, It'd be a traditional DA/SA much like the H&K USP Compact 45 in that it'd have a polymer frame and steel magazine. Barrel Length should be in the 4" range and capacity of at least 13 rounds. I'll not Glock Bash here. Even Glock thinks their 45/10's are too thick. Look at the Glock 36.

My opinion of the 10mm has more to do with market penetration than it does ballistics. Looked at my source for market information and, lo and behold, no 10mm on there. http://www.shootingindustry.com/Page/SpecRep1.html
 
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