Required Training for Gun Owners.

F

FUD

Moderator
I don't want some agency or department deciding who can own what but something happened this week-end that made me a little bit nervous. I was at the range shooting some targets that I'm way behind on and afterwards I was looking around the store at the various guns that they had and I got into a conversation with another customer and it went something like this ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"that's a really nice looking gun although it's a little big to conceal in this heat"

"not really, I'm carrying one on me right now"

"oh yeah, I couldn't tell"

"yep. most people are taken by surprised. I've been carrying it for the past couple of years.

"how does it shoot?"

"I guess okay. I never fired it."

:eek:"you got another one just like it?" :eek:

"nope, only this one"

:eek:"and you never fired it?" :eek:

"nope."

"How do you know how good it is?"

"I read good reviews on it"

"How do you know that this particular model isn't a one-in-a-million lemon?"

"because I bought it at _____ and they sell only good stuff."

"do you practice with something similar?"

"I don't practice with anything. As a matter of fact, I've never fired a gun. After all, how difficult could it be? Just point and pull the trigger."[/quote]... I don't know how others feel about this but it scares me a little bit to think that I (or a loved one) might be a block away when this gentleman feels that his life is in danger and pulls out his gun and starts spraying bullets all over the place.

Again, I'm not saying that we should have mandatory training or anything like that but (as a famous person once said) "with freedom comes responsibility" -- you can't have one without the other. This is a tough call. I don't want my rights restricted but I also don't want a loved one injuried or killed by somebody who doesn't know how to properly use the tool that he is carrying.

This might not be that common or it might be more common then we realize.

Comments? Suggestions?

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
So the guy carries this inert pistol he doesn't know how to use. Maybe it won't fire. That's his f***up.

Yep, mandatory training. Gun prohibitionists in Australia aren't done, they want mandatory training, too, for ALL firearm owners (you know, the ones with boltaction rimfires). They want to weed out the "yahoos" who want guns.

The training is to be a 22 week course. It will include ballistics, as well as instruction on why strict gun control is necessary and driving home the point that their gun ownership is a big privelege that the state tolerates them having.

Existing gun licence holders not grandfathered. As with all things, they'll succeed eventually.

But repeat after me, right? "It'll never happen here, it'll never happen here."

Battler.
 
I didn't say I wanted MANDATORY training. I said that with freedom come responsibility. Maybe this is why we are in the state that we are currently in ... gun owners did not take responsibility for their actions. Every time there is an accidental shooting because a gun owner was not RESPONSIBLE with his firearm, the media jumps on that and more of our rights are taken away.
 
Most of it is because non-gun-owners do not hold criminals responsible for their own action.

The evil and the danger comes from the item, not the person.

Also that people (not necessarily yourself) can make the break between "People SHOULD get some training" and "there should be a law forcing you to get some training".


Battler.
 
I am for mandatory training, not to own or carry a weapon, but to graduate from high school or hold any degree from a college.
 
Not to personally dissent w/anyone previously posting, but ...

Yup. There's lotsa idiots out there with guns. There's lotsa idiots out there with (fill in the blank). & that's our second biggest problems = lotsa idiots out there with stuff.

First biggest problem is that we, as a society, have bought into the idea of no personal responsibility.

We could discuss (argue) the merits of mandatory training for most anything, but we'll still have idiots & those who will never claim (or even call for for others) any personal responsibility.

As sad as it may be, I would rather have my whole family wiped out by some idiot acting irresponsibly than have us all mandated to be "trained" in all we do so that we are all "responsible."

The latter will surely never happen in fact.
 
I'm with Dennis on this one... Mandatory training to gratuate from highschool.... Everyone... This can and should be done under the constitutional powers by Article 1 Section 8 and I quote "and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress".

It has been too long that our Congress has neglected it's duty to prescribe the training of the militia.

Just think of how many fears would evaporate with the proper training. We would loose a great many anti's overnight.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
I deal with yahoos like that constantly at the shop. My first reaction is to slap them upside the head. Fortunately, I'm able to suppress that one. ;)

Instead, I tell them about the course we offer every month and do all I can to get them in. Most just snicker and say "I don't need to sit in a classroom for two nights to know how to shoot." Well, that's their right and prerogative, although I gently urge them out of the shop. The ones who look thoughtful and ask for info usually sign up and shoot damn well on range day.

I wish every good kid with responsible parents would get a .22 for his birthday, and practice with it. Ain't gonna happen, though.
 
Hey, FUD ... why the heck didn't you tell him what you are telling us???? If someone on the range is doing something unsafe, do you let that slide???? My advice to anyone who runs into clowns that cavalier is to let 'em have it ... in clear, yet polite, language. And, some folks just don't know. It's our job to teach the newbies to gun owning, shootin', carryin' ... just a thought.
 
I have to agree with FUD on this one! Public Stupidity is Public Stupidity! As one who has screwed up in the past I know that practice, practice, practice, practice, makes for SAFE. Though I've got a problem with government mandated anything, I have to agree that EVERYONE should have to go trough a firearms safety training course. Anyone who owns a firearm and doesn't exercise the responsibility part is just playing into the hands of the anti's. "And then Billy-bob handed the loaded Uzi to his 3 year old son.........". If you take the freedom to own the weapon you have to take the responsibility that goes with it. Gotta wonder what's going to happen to Billy when he really has to use his new toy and doesn't know what to do with it! Flame away!
 
This brings up an interesting question: How actively should we be "policing" our own ranks? That is, as responsible gun owners, how far are we willing to go to make sure that fellow "billy-bobs" with uzi's know how to use them safely and responsibly?

Have you ever gone out on a limb and told someone that they were wrong for doing something a certain way?

Have you ever reported a fellow gun owner to an official, ie. police, RSO, etc.?

Have you ever volunteered to become a firearms safety instructor?

Any other ideas on how we can keep the ranks of "gun owners" educated in the proper and responsible ways of handling firearms?


------------------
RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Except for Hamilton County until August 11th.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
Bluesman, on a few occassions I've chided someone at the range for breach of range etiquette, only once losing my temper. And it did seem to work. On the flip side, though, is the stint of range officer during hunter sight-ins. Some of those bozos are so sure of their invincibility that they'll run down to check targets before the shooting has ceased.
You can yell all you want, but the rest is up to Darwin's theory.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
This is a tough call (well, not for me :) ). If training for gun ownership alone is made mandatory, who decides what it should be? Obviously, they can raise the bar so high that many will be excluded (elitism). I don't favor that at all.

On the other hand...

My UT ccw required both classroom instruction and a range qualification, and I have NO problem with that. It's not difficult to pass if you are reasonably competent, and if you can't pass, maybe--no, probably--you shouldn't be carrying (this includes LEO's, of which there is no small # who can barely qualify). What you do in your own home with your gun is one thing (and whatever it is, it dowsn't require registration or licensing), but I don't want an idiot with a gun running around where my wife and kid shop, stroll etc.

The comparison holds with driving and cars.... you don't need to register a car or have a driver's license to operate your vehicle on you OWN property, but if you want to drive on public roads, you need a license and some training. A car is a deadly weapon in incompetent hands too.

I am totally RKBA (if you'd read my posts, you'd know), and I believe that with rights come attendant responsibilities. It IS a free country (in theory), but that doesn't give you the freedom to jeopardize my safety through your stupidity. That's why, despite the 1st amendment, you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre. If some people won't accept their responsibilities, there must be a provision that they be made to, or they sacrifice the right (of course, the State calls CCW not a right, but a privilege. I disagree). IMHO.

PS: these types of idiots are our biggest enemies... arrogant, egotistical, ignorant gun packers. It is them that the gun-grabbers look to first for bad examples, when trying to slander the rest of us.

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited July 25, 2000).

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited July 25, 2000).]
 
I expect to see that guy on next years Darwin Award list. That kind of stupidity tends to be self-cancelling. It is his right to act this way, though. He just must be prepared to pay the consequences of his actions when, Inevitably, they turn around and bite him in the a**. Unfortunatly, we must put up with these guys or risk being the tyrants we hate.

------------------
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
TexasVet, Welcome aboard! Thanks for serving! Bluesman, good point. If we are responsible, we should help. I have invited a girl from work over this week because her parents gave her a nine mm that she's not comfortable with. The wife and I will whip her into shape! I think most of the post hits the issue on the head, those who don't take the right seriously and don't train are our worst nightmare. I check the paper everyday and worry what the other side will make of the latest "accident" (tonight's was great, a guy blew off a testical). Even with training accidents can happen, but are less likely. Teach, Boys and Girls! I don't have a problem mandating training, but I do have a problem with GOVERNMENT MANDATED ANYTHING!
 
Bluesman, I am a NRA Certified Pistol Safety Instructor and have been since 1988.

Every time is see some one like that yahoo
(no insult to my ISP intended) :D
I immediately
identify myself to him as a NRA Certified Pistol Safety Instructor and tell him I am giving him a mini lesson for free because I can't bear to see someone mishandling a firearm or not being as safe as they could be.
I explain that I am not trying to be a wise guy but only trying to make them safer and better shooters. Whatever I am doing, I drop it and give them the free time it takes to set them right.

In Conn. you cant even purchase a hand gun without a safety course and a state permit to carry but believe it or not some permit holders who have been trained must have slept through the class as I catch them making mistakes and end up showing them a safer way to do the same thing. I try to explain why what I am showing them is more safe and it seems to work out just fine.

I suspect that some instructors that give a short 3 hour course are not doing a though job of it but cutting coners instead and it shows up in unsafe practices by their students.

I always give a 10 hour course and cut no coners explaining that owning and opperating a handgun is potentually more dangerous that driving a car and therefore requires more study.

In my opinion, it is far better to hurt someones feelings a little bit than to say nothing and allow a potential danger to continue until an accident occurs.

SET THEM STRAIGHT IMMEDIATELY BUT BE AS POLITE AS POSSIBLE. BE A BORE IF YOU MUST BUT
POINT OUT THE PROBLEM AND HOW TO CORRECT IT.

I have had a few say that they did not have time yada yada excuse whatever. I caution them to review their poor moves and learn proper safety before they have an accident.

"I can lead a horse to water but I cant make him drink...."

This is a good parting remark to the particulary dense ones, refered to by some as "serious a$$holes."
 
Just some ramblings on 12 years of being a NRA certified pistol safety instructor.

I have has some of my own students outshoot me with my own favorite hand guns. Rather embarassing and what is worst is now that I am on the wrong side of 50, this is happening more often.

Either I am getting to be an expert instructor or slowly going blind
or both!

I also get some students that, despite my best efforts, are so nervious with a gun that they can bearly manage to keep hits on a 14 inch by 14 inch target at 15 feet and look scared spitless the whole time.

These I tell that I am not rating them on accuracy but meerly how safe they handle their hand gun.
Sometimes, but not always, this helps. I usually pass them on the course but tell them that they need more practice until they become comfortable with the firearm and then they can start working on their accuracy or rather lack thereof.

One particulary scared and fumble fingered lady who looked especially shakey to me(it seemed she was about to drop the gun at any moment) I told that she needed about 2 more hours of snap cap dry fire practice to get more comfortable with firearms before I would let here fire live rounds and that the practice time would be provided free of charge and that she would pass the course.

But, for some reason unknown to me ,she dropped out instead of spending just two more hours practicing.

In my opinion, she really needed that practice because she looked almost dangerious to me.

I just completed certifing a 70 year old guy
who was nearly as bad as the lady above to begin with, but I used physicoligy on him,
instead.

Yes , I learn from my mistakes; I never mentioned to him just how bad I thought he was but instead meerly mentioned that he needed a bit more practice and would be just fine.

On the day of his manditory (by state law)
range test I told him the hell with testing
that we were here to have fun and not to worry because he would pass.

He truly stunk for the first hour of shooting;
nothing but shot gun paterns,random bullet holes everywheres at 20 feet.

But 3 hours later, he cut a 1.5 inch, 10 shot group at 25 yards; not bad for a blind old coot that had never fired a gun before in his life.

But somehow, I think that the 2.5 power pistol scope versus iron sights might have had a lot to do with that tight group.

Anyways, he now handles a pistol with safety and confidence and I feel safe with him shooting beside me and it is that safe feeling that is the passing grade for my course.

I wish I could afford to spend the time and ammo to let every sorry sack wanta be shooter practice with my guns and ammo for three hours but 9 mm and 38 spl are expensive, as is range time , not to mention
my time.

The 70 year old coot was lucky because it was sunday, I was taking the day off, a working holiday and we were at a private club
as guests so no range fees.

We even had a barbique right on the firing line at 6 pm.
It was great because I was starved but I had to use my hubcap screwdrivers from my car trunk to flip the burgers because the guy that brought the grill forgot important
things like the spatulla and knives and forks
and paper plates but I suspose that that is not as bad as forgetting even more important
stuff like ammo or magizines, both of which
I have done in the past.

The time I forgot the magazines, well , I just shot my revolver and now I keep the magizines in the butts of the pistols instead of a seperate mag bag.

But the time I forgot my ammo was even worst
because we had to cut the day short after burning up all my friends ammo and shooting the snot out of his gold cup. I had not brought a 45 and all Frank had was 45acp ammo.

I'll bore you all with the rest of my stories some other day! By fer now!
 
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