Replace ALL taxes with Sales Taxes

No sales tax. Every time money changes hands the gov't gets a chunk. Degenerate example: I sell you a widget for $5, the feds get $1...then you sell the widget back to me for $5, and the feds get another $1...what's the point? And we'd continue to require detailed records, paperwork, red tape, and a nosy gov't.

The only tax I "like" at this point is property tax, the way this country was originally funded (IIRC). You want a piece of this land, you pay your "dues" related to the size of the piece you want. From there, any financial transactions you make with anyone else is purely between the two of you; no interference (tax forms, record keeping, record proving, receipts, coercion, social engineering, etc.) by the government. Yes, there's an apparent issue of the apartment in Manhattan vs. the 1000-acre mountain retreat, but if people are willing to live like sardines and use less space then they get a break. As for varying quality of land, different people have different opinions about what's "good" and the gov't can butt out of deciding such issues. Keep taxes simple: gov't decides (via reps) how much money is needed to run the country, divides by number of acres in the country, and charges landowners based on number of acres owned. (Yes, this changes "owned" into "rented"; got a better idea?)

I do, of course, reserve the right to change my mind.
 
DC!
Thank you for finding and posting Dr. Keyes' article. I hadn't seen it. I guess I'm in pretty good company - the Founding Fathers AND Dr. Keyes!

(Frankly, it rather startles me! :D)
 
Try this: sales tax only at the retail level.

As far as property tax, I don't like the idea. You're asking the gov't to determine how much cash it needs. Ask any bureaucrat how much money his org *needs*, and you won't get a straight answer. You'll get projections, WAGs, and over-inflated budgets. You know, just like we have now.

I personally favor user fees. For example, if you need to call the cops to pick up the pieces of a goblin who you just blew away, make the goblin's next-of-kin pay the expenses. We don't need a standing army, IMHO; a citizen militia, like the Founders intended, would work fine. However, I don't see that system being implemented (not in my lifetime, anyway), so a NRST is probably the best option.

------------------
A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Vote Libertarian - For A Change.
 
here is an idea.....Replace ALL taxes with.........NOTHING!......

------------------
resistance to tyrrany is obedience to god...thomas jefferson
 
Proto,

You're right there, but there's no way in hell it'll happen until we return the government to only the functions it's legally allowed to perform.

Note the language, folks. I didn't say "Until the government returns to...". It's up to US to smack the bastards back down, and the way they're going, it's going to take repeated applications of the cluebat to make them understand.

------------------
A vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil.
Vote Libertarian - For A Change.
 
ctdonath,
I have a problem with the government charging me "rent" on my home.

Let's say we live across the street from each other in identical homes. You keep yours maintained and clean. I don't maintain mine and I am just short of having the Health Department evict me.

Know what? You pay more property tax! You're "fined" for keeping your place nice. They tell you how much to pay and when to pay it. You can not "put off" property taxes.

And your boss is friends with the county moguls. His house has twice the value of yours but he only pays half as much tax as you do! Heh, heh. It pays to have friends.

Sales taxes are consumption taxes. If you have a "bad" month - you pay little or no tax because you buy UNtaxed necessities.

I'll stick with sales tax. It's already in place and working.
-------

Coinneach,
I just blew away a goblin. He is not married, has no siblings, his Mom and Dad are dead. We find he is a long, lost 28th cousin to your family. You have to pay for the clean-up of my home? You did nothing wrong.
--------

Prototype,
I'm with YOU! But funding EMS, Fire, and Police is going to get tricky without taxes. And those danged military folks insist on being paid even when they get to play with those million dollar tanks and billion dollar aircraft.

-------

Okay, so I'm being a bit of a smart aleck, but a sales tax is fair for everyone. I think it would work.
 
I will tentatively agree that a national sales tax would be an improvement. I would also go one step further and neuter the Federal Reserve by reinstating the gold standard. Part of the nature of a tax on public and private transactions will be an increase in the lack of compliance. Gone out of your way lately to make sure the state got its cut the last time you sold or bought at a garage sale or flea market, or other private transaction? Income tax compliance is based on the big gun held to all our heads which is difficult to escape if you make an honest living. Taxation should be to provide for only the barest of essentials. Much more and we have an economy centrally controlled by the state. Sounds familiar. The less of a wedge the state puts between you and I in our transactions, the more our interactions will benefit ourselves and our families.
 
Once a Sales Tax replaces all other taxes,

* The COST of producing necessities will decline. Necessities will NOT be
taxed, therefore the PRICE of necessities also will decline.
* We will tax ourselves only by buying taxable items.
* No bureaucrat will set arbitrary taxable values on our homes and businesses.
No more “rent” (property tax) on our private homes.
* With no tax on property or necessities, low income people (retired, welfare,
unemployed, students, etc.) will be able to meet more of their own expenses.
The cost of welfare will decrease while their standard of living improves.
* Every time we purchase a taxable item, we will be reminded that the
government has no money of its own - it spends OUR money. Our legislators
(at all levels) will suffer heretofore unimagined scrutiny. Legislators and
bureaucrats will be rewarded for SAVING money rather than spending it.
Voters will vote financially irresponsible Congresscritters out of office.

-------

One more item must be brought under control - deficit spending.

* Once the government quits printing phony money, that cures one great
cause of inflation.
* Once we put the government on a budget, that will stop most deficit
spending by the government - another cause of inflation.
* Now we must address deficit spending by the consumer.

Remember that savings are not taxed. Never again will you be punished or
“fined” for thrift and financial responsibility.

Surely credit must exist for the purposes of buying homes, perhaps vehicles,
business opportunities, ventures, etc.; however, the binge spending must be cut
back. Loose and available credit expands the money supply, increases debt
which eventually must be paid, pressures prices upwards, and gives a false
“prosperity” at the cost of a future “recession”.

Right now, our good times are being financed by consumer credit. Some time
in the future we will have to pay for the “good times” of the Clinton regime.


-------------------

How does all this relate to guns?

We need to restore the concept of responsibility.

Government must be more responsible for its actions and more closely
scrutinized by a concerned, watchful, and informed electorate.

Individuals must be more responsible for their own lifestyles: purchases,
credit, savings, taxes, how their taxes are spent, what their representatives are
doing, etc.

As personal responsibility returns to American we will quit blaming
circumstances or other people for all our problems. We will be more apt to
mind our own business and consider our own actions - including self-defense,
defense of our loved ones, defense of our property, and defense of our country.

As self-reliance again comes to the American citizenry, we will tend to return
to the understanding that inanimate objects can do nothing without human
intervention. People will remember that we hurt ourselves and each other
WITH inanimate objects. Even a loaded gun can not hurt anyone without a
“jerk” on the trigger.

When Americans return to a life of self-reliance, and force our government to
return to Constitutional law, gun control and other forms of government
intrusion will whither and die.

The conversion of all taxes to sales tax is only one brick in the wall between
our American Constitutional way of life and tyranny. But, as Mykl says,
follow the money. If WE control their purse strings, our government can not
do anything we refuse them funds to accomplish.
 
Not that I disagree, but I'm pretty fond of the idea that government should be "pay-as-you-go".
I reckon food oughta be taxed. Loaf of bread, pound of meat, quart of moo, are basically the same cost to all, no? So what could be fairer than a tax on food?

Probably the best thing I can think of about a national sales tax is this: Imagine the boom in the black market and the underground economy!



------------------
The Bill of Rights, and the Golden Rule are enough for civilized behavior. The rest is window dressing. Shoot carefully, swifter...
 
You state that "necessities will not be taxed." Can you name a non necessity? Is a 50 BMG a necessity? Is formula for my sick calves a necessity? Whom decides what is needed and what is not, and consequently should be taxed? If we only tax that which we don't really need or WANT, we still end up taxing EVERYTHING because we all need or want different things. How do we prevent the powers of taxation from steadily increasing the rate over time? How do we prevent government from using this form of taxation to alter behavior it doesn't approve of such as gun ownership, control of electronic media like the internet, and other modes of assembly and free speech?
 
I am still against this form of taxation.

I am against ALL TAXATION... but if I had to chose:
Tax should be a tithe...
Flat 10% income tax. Every one pays... Rich or Poor.
That is the only FAIR way to assess it.

I am not going to pay 5 bucks for a gallon of freakin Milk.

------------------
"America is a melting pot, the people at the bottom get burned while all the scum floats to the top."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
1) I agree - government should be “pay-as-you-go”. Currently we have
deficits that we can never pay off. Our “surpluses” are the result of word
games and bookkeeping tricks that would land you and me in the pokey.
It’s bogus.
- The sales tax puts the government on a budget. Strictly “for the
calendar year X, income was $___ and expenses were $___.” Our entire
federal government would be forced to budget and make difficult
decisions - just as you and I must do.

2) Leaving food and necessities UNtaxed is equal for everyone - no
problem there. But leaving necessities untaxed would reduce the need
for welfare, with subsequent reductions in associated overhead
(bureaucracy, cheating, etc.).

3) The definition of “necessities” is largely settled already by the state
governments. By and large, the entire sales tax system is already
established, in place, and working. Food, medications prescribed by
doctors and veterinarians, toilet paper, etc. are necessities. Personally, I
would like to add electricity, water, sewage, garbage pickup, and basic
telephone service to “necessities” - but I’m open to (some!) suggestions.
;)

4) Black markets and the underground economy would be little or no
problem. Sales tax is only on NEW items. If I buy a car, gun, TV, etc. I
pay the sales tax. Two years later, if I sell the item to you, it’s none of
the government’s business. It’s a private sale.

5) “How do we prevent the powers of taxation from steadily increasing
the rate over time?”
- The current system of taxation is so sneaky that we have no idea what
tax we are paying. For example:
-- The farmer includes the cost of his income tax and property tax into
his goods. Therefore, when we buy “untaxed” food, we also are paying
“hidden tax” (the farmer’s taxes) that we can not see.
-- The auto manufacturer pays property taxes, income taxes, and
employer taxes. The auto workers pay income taxes and must be paid
enough to pay those income taxes. These taxes are all costs to the auto
manufacturer. He must include those costs in the price of his goods - the
car. When you see the price of the car, all these taxes are already
hidden in the price. Then the government taxes that price so you are
paying tax on taxes. Again, that’s why it’s called a “hidden” tax!
- A sales tax is always visible. Every taxpayer can see exactly
what his government is costing him. Congresscritters who spend
excessively would be voted out of office and be replaced with more frugal
representatives of the people. That’s how we control the RATE of
taxation.

6) “How do we prevent government from using this form of taxation to
alter behavior it doesn't approve of such as gun ownership, control of
electronic media like the internet, and other modes of assembly and free
speech?”

- A sales tax is a fixed percentage on ALL taxable goods and services.
The government can NOT play favorites and request a 10,000% tax on
ammunition as Senator Moynihan (D-NY) suggested. It is a flat
percentage for all taxable goods and services.

- The idea of eliminating the entire federal government, military, etc.
warrants little discussion - a suggestion apparently made in frustration.

7) “...Tax should be a tithe...Flat 10% income tax. Every one pays...
Rich or Poor. That is the only FAIR way to assess it.”
- Our current, graduated income tax system is totally unfair.
-- If you save your money, you are punished! You must pay tax on
interest earned which, in effect, is a fine or a penalty for being frugal.
You save money for your retirement and you are punished for your
efforts. Plus, you must pay tax on your entire income, including interest
earned.
-- If I go out and buy “toys”, I am rewarded! I make it part of my
business and get a tax break for “playing”. Don’t think this isn’t done. I
AM DOING IT! As a CHL/firearms instructor I “expense” every gun I buy
because both I and students use these gun in my CHL classes! Every
time I go to the range it is for teaching (generating income) or for
training, so I “expense” my mileage, ammo, range fees, membership
fees, etc.” Therefore, I pay less income tax.
-- Personal responsibility is punished and irresponsibility is rewarded.
That’s bogus!

- A flat income tax seems to have some appeal by remedying the above
situation. But is it the answer to our prayers?
-- With any kind of income tax, we end up paying the hidden taxes I’ve
already discussed. Therefore we end up paying tax we are not aware of
and can not evaluate. It does not hold the government responsible for
the money they collect from us or for the ways they spend our money.
-- The cost of necessities is kept artificially high because of hidden
taxation. This requires the government to operate an inflated welfare
system - government overhead which we must pay for. It makes you
and me pay for the welfare of people who get accustomed to being on the
government teat, generation after generation.
-- Income tax still can be manipulated by giving exemptions, exceptions,
deductions, etc. - violating the very concept of a “flat” tax.

8) “I am not going to pay 5 bucks for a gallon of freakin Milk.” Nor
would you have to - as I’ve repeatedly explained.
- Elimination of income tax would LOWER the price of your “gallon of
freakin milk”! Right now, included in the cost of your freakin milk, you
pay a portion of the following:
- the farmer’s income tax, property tax, unnecessarily expensive food
and necessities (with THEIR hidden taxes), etc.
- the trucker’s income tax, property tax, fuel tax, highway tax, and HIS
unnecessarily expensive food and necessities (with THEIR hidden taxes),
etc.
- the wholesaler’s income tax, property tax, etc. etc.
- the grocery store’s property tax, employment taxes, etc. etc.
- the cost of all the government bureaucracy necessary to establish,
implement, and enforce all these “freakin” taxes that we presently are
blissfully unaware of!

George, the cost of your “freakin milk” would drop dramatically! I can
not give you specific numbers. Nor can I tell you how hard the wind will
blow in a hurricane! But hurricanes blow! And so do hidden taxes. And
so does our current, complicated, treacherous, “freakin” system of
taxation which nobody (not even the head of the IRS) can figure out.

9) A sales tax is:
Equitable.
-- If you spend money on taxable items, there can be no favoritism.
-- Eliminating hidden taxes would lower the cost of ALL items.
-- Eliminating all the tax maneuvering would let businesses lower
overhead - resulting in lower prices for ALL items.
-- Why should a married couple pay more tax than two single people?
-- Why should you “pay” me to have kids? If I choose to have ten kids
and you choose to have two, why should I pay less tax?
-- Why should I pay less tax because I become 65 years old? It’s none
of the government’s business how old I am.

Easy to implement. The system is already in place.
-- The states just collect the money along with their own sales tax and
send in the fed’s portion.
-- Current auditing procedures for sales tax would suffice for any sales
tax. All that matters is, “What new goods and services did you sell? Pay
a percentage based on that figure.”

Cheaper - Less tax to pay.
-- Expensive federal overhead (eg IRS) would be eliminated - reducing
federal expenses and lowering our tax burden.
-- Congress would be forced by increased public scrutiny to reduce
frivolous spending. Less expense = less taxation.
-- Eliminating all taxation on necessities would reduce the cost of living
for ALL Americans. Welfare programs could be reduced, saving tax
money, reducing government overhead, reducing reliance upon welfare,
encouraging work and thrift, etc.

Encourages thrift. No more being fined, penalized, or taxes for saving
money or investing it wisely.

More private.
-- It’s nobody’s business what you earn. Even with a flat tax, the
government pokes into the personal affairs of every person and business
in America. That must stop!
-- Who cares if you deposit or withdraw $10,000? That’s none of the
government’s business? All they have to worry about is the business
who sells something.
-- Less infringement on individual rights. No IRS raids on people’s
homes.
-- No government “suspicion” that you are living “beyond your means”.
No more raids to see where you get your money. No more IRS audits
because there is NO income tax and NO IRS!
 
First off, all taxation is theft. It's just that simple: if somebody takes money from you against your wishes it is theft. It doesn't matter if it's Robin Hood, the IRS, or some mugger doing the taking. Dennis is correct in that a sales tax is the "most fair" way for the gov't to steal our money, though. At least this way we have a small say in how much is stolen, a degree of politeness one does not often find in thieves. However, this entire discussion is based on the assumption that gov't is necessary, a point which is open to debate.

Any discussion of personal responsibility should permit the idea that we are responsible enough to govern ourselves.



------------------
"The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of any of their number is self-protection."
John Stuart Mill
 
The biggest problem to me is not the method of taxation, but what THEY do with it.
Since in theory we all have the same rights, shouldnt we all pay the same taxes?????

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
Back
Top