removing copper fouling ?

I'm reading that once you go away from ammonia (not a great thing to use for it) then the top three appear to be;

M-Pro7 Copper remover
KG12
Bore Tech Cu+2



I'm certainly preferring the move away from toxic solvents, but it's only within the last ten years (generally) that this change is happened (not just in the shooting industry) so it's taking a while to persuade people to them, especially the older die-hards.
 
Yeah, being more careful is highly recommended, but it basically slowly poisons you if you're not careful with it, getting it on your skin.

Besides, someone on here referenced a 2006 article on cleaning, checking with a borescope (i wish more people had them!) and it called foul (rimshot) on the older petro-based stuff, the newer concoctions are a large improvement :)
 
I'm certainly preferring the move away from toxic solvents, but it's only within the last ten years (generally) that this change is happened (not just in the shooting industry) so it's taking a while to persuade people to them, especially the older die-hards.
Click to expand...

Everything is toxic. Just depends on the dose.

Jimro
 
Different definition, but yes, although the point i'm making here is whether something is actively harmful, not based upon how much we're 'taking'
 
MaDMaXX, do you worry about lead dust from primers? If not, I wouldn't worry about "toxic chemicals" in your cleaning solvent.

Copper iteslf can cause heavy metal toxicity. Selenium is an essential trace element but deadly in higher quantities.

If you want to talk about the danger of mutagenic compounds we can do that, or if you want to talk about low dose toxicity substances (such as Uranium or Plutonium) we can talk abou that.

But just saying "toxic chemicals" is like saying "wet water."

Bottom line, ANY of the cleaning solvents listed can and will kill you in a sufficient does. ALL of them are perfectly safe when used as directed.

Jimro
 
Hooligan is right. I've tried almost all of the copper removers and Boretech Eliminator is easily the best I've used. And yes, I used Sweets for a long time. Boretech is better.

I tested it on a rifle that I had recently cleaned. I had gotten all the copper out of it using an ammonia based cleaner, or so I thought. With the Boretech, I got a lot more copper out. A lot.

That said, sometimes a rifle shoots best when it still has some copper in the bore, so maybe you don't want it all removed. That's up to you and your rifle. I've got some of both, some where clean is good and some where clean isn't so good. Took me a while to figure out which rifle was which.
 
I must not be explaining myself very well :(

I'm talking about the poisonous, carcinogenic compounds in the petro-based solvents. When you know someone who has died in his early 30's from exposure in the garage environment, you want to take the safer option :(


My point is that whilst i'm all happy go go playing with petrol/brake cleaner/bore solvent/etc and have the smell around me, it's really bad for me, *really* bad.

I'm trying to be sensible, we now have the options out there in the water based and "non-toxic" based cleaners, you will have to go and look up the term 'non-toxic' if you don't like it and see what that means to the manufacturing industry.

I especially like the findings from this 2006 Precision Shooting article: http://www.boretech.com/docs/articles/precisionshooting_jan.pdf
Very helpful, but also very enlightening from the standpoint of how effective is the old technology we thought was working fine.


Since that article was written, Boretech seem to have come out with a specifically targeted copper remover, Cu+2, which differs from Eliminator in that it is stronger on copper and doesn't really attack the carbon.



Anyway, i'm just wanting to choose the newer, more high tech options which are proven to work better than the older formulas that some people stick to for various reasons, including that they believe they're still as effective (now dis-proven)

All of which helps me, cleaner and better protected guns as well as the ability to do gun cleaning in my office without the need for ventilation! :)
 
There is a big difference working in an autobody shop and cleaning a rifle. Unless you are using a spray gun to aerosolize gallons of cleaning solvent for 8 hours a day. Chemical sensitivity syndrome is common among autobody workers (and chemistry teachers who teach Lab for hours on hours every day).

There plenty of chemicals used in the painting industry that are NOT used in bore cleaners.

In fact, Hoppe's eliminated the one chemical that was moderately carcinogenic from its formula years ago. Bottom line, all cleaning solutions work if used as directed.

Jimro
 
So you're saying that the warnings on the containers not to breathe the vapours and not to have skin contact are ok? You're not going to die from just occasional contact, i understand that.

I don't see the point in unnecessarily exposing myself to the chemicals when i don't have to.

If you think there was only one carcinogenic chemical in Hoppe's, i don't think you're correct, petroleum is carcinogenic and it's still a petro based product.

If you're talking about their Elite range (made by M-Pro 7 and all 'non-toxic') then yes, nothing carcinogenic in there.

All cleaners will work to varying degrees, as per the article i linked, the petro-based cleaners are highly ineffective on the carbon, hence the want for the newer more effective cleaners, which have a side benefit of being non toxic :)


It's a win-win, i don't understand why you're saying not to worry about using the older ineffective and carcinogenic cleaners?
 
I've used the Hoppe's Elite bore cleaner you speak of, and was very unimpressed. Hoppe's #9 on the other hand, is part of my regular cleaning routine. The Elite seems to get carbon fouling pretty good, but as for copper, it hardly touches it compared to my "deadly" Sweet's

I am however thinking of giving the Boretech A try when I run out of Sweet's
 
Yeah, it seems that some of the older formulations have a little action against copper, but the newer ones are more targeted, so they have split them, carbon cleaners and copper cleaners.

For example, the elite gun cleaner is only for carbon/lead, the elite copper terminator is for that metal.


*Edit: Just looking over Hoppe's website, it does seem they still do, essentially, 3 versions of everything;

The original stuff (old tech)
The synthetic version of the original stuff (Biodegradable)
The Elite versions (made for them by M-Pro 7)


From a business standpoint, this is a reasonable indication that their old products are still popular, it's been around so long, and whether or not it's a good reason to keep them in production, people still want and buy them, they swear by them.
 
I used to use KG-12. Then i realized my KG-1 Carbon stuff had taken out all the copper by the time the carbon was done. Now I have a quart of it, ill be good to go for a year.
 
How in the world did the old timers manage any sort of accuracy with the old fashioned bore cleaners that we have recently learned don't do a sufficient job?
 
We all have to remember that you're going to get varying effects from different ammo, barrels and cleaning efforts, so i guess YMMV.

steveNChunter, i don't think any of us are saying that, or to what effects having a gummed up barrel will cause. I've heard various stories of barrels that are condemned purely based upon not realising they're just gummed up too much.

Borescopes have allowed previously unknown inspection capabilities, i find it useful to know two things from this.

1) We've had high chances of merely cleaned residue build-up.
2) We might not need barrels to be as clean as we thought?


It's also entirely possible that we didn't know things could be as accurate as they possibly could be? I don't know, but the borescope is telling us that the old products, whilst they do "work", they clearly don't work to the degree we always thought they did.
 
Glad I saw this thread again. In a month or two I'll embark on breaking in a new F Class barrel. I had planned to use Butch's Bore Shine for this procedure. After reading that article, I am dismayed to learn that I should instead use a 2 step procedure featuring Slip 2000 carbon cutter followed by Bore Tech Eliminator or a similar copper remover. I had hoped not to have to buy another set of solvents. Also, I had hoped not to have to use brushes.

I guess I need to re evaluate. :(
 
It seems to me that different cleaning solutions work better in certain circumstances. If you are not in a hurry, the easiest way to get a rifle clean is let solvents that are long term soak safe, soak overnight. Then do it again. Then do it again. Keep doing it until it is clean. I usually use Montana extreme for the initial cleaning, then neutralize it, and let br9 soak 24 hr intervals until all the fine stuff is removed.
 
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