Remington R51

[TunnelRat]

If the new roll out is successful, the naysayers, and the Remington "bad-mothers" will have egg on their faces too.

You can bank on the negative but that in no way will affect the outcome , especially if it is successful. I heard the same kind of BS when several other designs came out, including the one I was armed with in 1966 , the M-16. It has been around longer than any shoulder fired weapon in U.S. history. There are several other examples as well. It is easy to be negative because it most often does not require critical thinking , which seems to be lacking here.

You really seem to be taking this a bit personally.

It's a single stack 9mm in a sea of single stack 9mm, many of which have had years on the market and generally favorable reports. The R51 had serious issues at launch that IMO have no exact parallel, at least in the past few years. The pistols that were noted to be bad had issues that were so glaring that they should never have gone out of the door, it's that simple. Whether the bean counters or not are the issue frankly doesn't matter. What does matter is a company that marketed a handgun for self defense sold what was in many cases a completely unreliable handgun. That's deserving of all the criticism that Remington received. Coupled with issues the 700 has had and spotty QC on recent 870s, I think Big Green's reputation is hurt. It takes years to build a reputation and a very short time to destroy it. It may be unfair, but that's reality.

 

[Colt46]

I've been a fan of the original 51

I so wanted to get one of the new generation, but early reviews were horrid(and well deserved).
If ever there was a tutorial on how not to develop and market a new product- it would be Remington's handling of this flop.

 

[Skans]

It had serious issues at launch that IMO have no exact parallel, at least in the past few years.

Maybe not in recent years; but recall the Rogak!!! Look, here's someone trying to get $700 for one of these gems http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=483596360.

The Rogak was a poorly executed American version of the Steyr GB. While the Steyr GB is an excelent 9mm, the Rogak was a dismal failure which likely contributed to the Steyr GB's demise.

 

[James K]

FWIW, the Remington Model 51 and R51 are not gas delayed blowbacks. (The Rogak and Steyr GB, mentioned above, are.)

The Pedersen design is sometimes called a hesitation lock; the breechblock is allowed to move within limits so that it acts like a short stroke piston to drive the slide backward after a delay. The system is more complex than a straight blowback, but the gun can be made lighter since keeping the breech closed until pressure drops is not solely dependent on the mass of the slide, as it is in the Colt M1908 pistol.

Jim

 

[peggysue]

I have 2 Rogaks I bought to try to make one work..I gave up. fear the R-51.
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attac...e-my-little-collection-rogak-boat-anchors.jpg

 

[Hank R]

I apologize for my harsh words and for making it personal. I have a long history of being a Remington fan going back the past 60 of my 75 years . I guess they have disserved some of the bad-mouthing about the R51 but still maintain the ball game is not over for the R51 and it can be fixed. Hopefully I will get one this summer that will be as good as my 51 in 380acp that is 85 years old. Hank

 

[zach_]

Hank, I hope you get your 51. I will join you as a 51 owner if and when they release a fixed version. How hard can it be??

 

[James K]

Hi, Peggysue,

Do you mean R51, not R61? The Steyr GB and its clone, the Rogak, have nothing to do with either the R51 or the Remington Model 51. The operating systems are totally different. The Remington pistols use a hesitation lock, in which the breechblock is allowed to move to the rear a small amount so it acts as a short stroke piston to drive the slide backwards. The GB and the Rogak are gas-retarded blowbacks, in which gas ports in front of the chamber allow some of the gas to blow forward against the inside front of the slide to slow the slide; there is no mechanical locking mechanism.

Rogak bought the rights from Steyr but the system requires close tolerances and a tight fitting of parts to function properly, and Rogak would not/could not provide that level of quality control. My Rogak did not malfunction because I could never get it to fire reliably due to a weak mainspring. When it would fire, it actually seemed to work OK. My GB works OK, but it is a huge gun for the 9mm, more suitable in size to something like the .50 AE.

The HK-7 series and the GB both came out of a German police request for a 9mm P handgun that had a fixed barrel. The HK's have problems, though they have a devout cult following (from whom I will hear!), and so does the GB, though its main drawback is size and bulk.

Jim

 

[Skans]

I was the one who used the Rogak as an example. It's an example of a gun that in concept is a fantastic gun; but in execution was a miserable failure because of the sloppy construction and workmanship. It's an iconic failure that contributed to the GB's demise (contributed, not fully responsible).

The R51 can be a fantastic little gun. But, the initial roll-out of "crap" is going to be difficult for people to ignore. If Remington is determined to make the R51 a success, I'm sure it can make this happen; however it might need to charge a bit more than anticipated to make it work AND profitable.

BTW, Peggysue - cool Rogaks; I thought about buying one too to see if I could get it to work. If you can't make one work with parts from two, I think I'm glad I didn't get one!