CharlieDeltaJuliet
New member
Your rifle should be an MOA rifle. Most are out of the box nowadays.
Remington 700 .308 (Factory)
- Thread starter buskeen
- Start date
Traditionaly, one MOA in the USA shooting sports was exactly 1 inch per hundred yards of range. That was based on small bore and high power rifle targets' scoring rings spaced in even inches apart and originated over a hundred years ago
'Twas also based on scope sights with external mounts (Sidle, Lyman, Unertl, El Monte, Fecker, Remington and others) with each click on their 40 tpi screws moving the tube .0002" inch and with the standard 7.2" mount spacing it moved impact exactly one inch at 100 yards. .0002 is 1/3600th of 7.2 inches just like 1 inch is 1/3600th of 100 yards. And metallic rear sights Redfield, Lyman, Gates, Vaver, Warner and others) with their 40 tpi adjustment screws turning 1/3 revolution across 4 clicks moving it .0083333333" which is exactly 1/3600 the distance of the standard 30 inch sight radius of target rifles; 3 MOA per full turn of a knob.
Is this so darned hard to use?????????
A couple of decades ago, this was no longer toloerated by folks who didn't shoot smallbore or high power matches. They had to have the trigonometric values used because they could not comprehend such a simple way of moving sights and bullet impact. But they had no problems with two standards for miles (nautical versus stature) nor mil standards of which there were 4 different ones on this planet.
End of rant.
'Twas also based on scope sights with external mounts (Sidle, Lyman, Unertl, El Monte, Fecker, Remington and others) with each click on their 40 tpi screws moving the tube .0002" inch and with the standard 7.2" mount spacing it moved impact exactly one inch at 100 yards. .0002 is 1/3600th of 7.2 inches just like 1 inch is 1/3600th of 100 yards. And metallic rear sights Redfield, Lyman, Gates, Vaver, Warner and others) with their 40 tpi adjustment screws turning 1/3 revolution across 4 clicks moving it .0083333333" which is exactly 1/3600 the distance of the standard 30 inch sight radius of target rifles; 3 MOA per full turn of a knob.
Is this so darned hard to use?????????
A couple of decades ago, this was no longer toloerated by folks who didn't shoot smallbore or high power matches. They had to have the trigonometric values used because they could not comprehend such a simple way of moving sights and bullet impact. But they had no problems with two standards for miles (nautical versus stature) nor mil standards of which there were 4 different ones on this planet.
End of rant.
Bart B.
I know true mils (6283 mils), US Military Mils (6400 mils), Soviet Military Mils (6000 mils), and I had to look up the obsolete Swedish Mil (6300 mils).
Of course this was all developed for artillery folks and not rifle shooters. Lots of MOA reticle/MOA adjustment scopes are hitting the market now, as many people are intuitively more used to MOA than mil math.
Jimro
I know true mils (6283 mils), US Military Mils (6400 mils), Soviet Military Mils (6000 mils), and I had to look up the obsolete Swedish Mil (6300 mils).
Of course this was all developed for artillery folks and not rifle shooters. Lots of MOA reticle/MOA adjustment scopes are hitting the market now, as many people are intuitively more used to MOA than mil math.
Jimro
Then there's the coaching problems with four or six riflemen on the team and they all don't have the same sight adjustment changes due to sight radiuses as well as lead screw tpi or revolution clicks. One click could be anywhere from 1/6 MOA to 1/2 MOA depending on what's on the gun. With two different ones on the line shooting pairs, when the coach says "One click left" for wind corrections, bullets from both don't make the same change in impact.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
New member
Actually weren't the Army 6400 mil and the USMC 6283?
CharlieDeltaJuliet,
There are differences in the "Mildot" reticles used by the US Army and USMC, but that has to do with the dot shape, round vs. oval, and not the angle measured.
Last I checked USMC used 6400, it is NATO standard and all the USMC artillery guys get their training at Fort Sill, OK same as the Army guys. Standardizing fire support is damn important, although our guys have to learn the Soviet system in order to train Afghan Soldiers on the Soviet aiming system (even the ubiquitous 82mm system has the 6000 mil adjustments).
Jimro
There are differences in the "Mildot" reticles used by the US Army and USMC, but that has to do with the dot shape, round vs. oval, and not the angle measured.
Last I checked USMC used 6400, it is NATO standard and all the USMC artillery guys get their training at Fort Sill, OK same as the Army guys. Standardizing fire support is damn important, although our guys have to learn the Soviet system in order to train Afghan Soldiers on the Soviet aiming system (even the ubiquitous 82mm system has the 6000 mil adjustments).
Jimro
CharlieDeltaJuliet
New member
Thanks Jimro, I wasn't sure. I had read it. Some where I believe..
Edit: here is where I think I saw it. http://www.boomershoot.org/general/TruthMilDots.htm
Edit: here is where I think I saw it. http://www.boomershoot.org/general/TruthMilDots.htm
CharlieDeltaJuliet,
I stand corrected, there does seem to be an angular difference between the two reticles. Those infantry guys just have to be the odd men out. However the difference is insignificant compared to the dimensions of the dots and ovals.
ARMY: 3.375 moa multiplied by 1.047” x 10 = 35.3” @ 1000 yards
USMC: 3.438 moa multiplied by 1.047” x 10 = 36.0” @ 1000 yards
Both Army and USMC snipers have the goal of estimating to the tenth of a mil to get an accurate range estimation, and the difference between Arty and True is insignificant inside direct fire ranges. For the purpose of Artillery launching a projectile over 15 kilometers that difference becomes significant. Over a thousand yards the difference is a bit less than that, however for the purposes of direct fire by a sniper, not so much as you can see by the math.
So every sniper (Army B4 or USMC SS) whether they are using Army or USMC scopes is going to use the same range estimation formula, which is why the "mildot math" works no matter which reticle you happen to be using.
Jimro
I stand corrected, there does seem to be an angular difference between the two reticles. Those infantry guys just have to be the odd men out. However the difference is insignificant compared to the dimensions of the dots and ovals.
ARMY: 3.375 moa multiplied by 1.047” x 10 = 35.3” @ 1000 yards
USMC: 3.438 moa multiplied by 1.047” x 10 = 36.0” @ 1000 yards
Both Army and USMC snipers have the goal of estimating to the tenth of a mil to get an accurate range estimation, and the difference between Arty and True is insignificant inside direct fire ranges. For the purpose of Artillery launching a projectile over 15 kilometers that difference becomes significant. Over a thousand yards the difference is a bit less than that, however for the purposes of direct fire by a sniper, not so much as you can see by the math.
So every sniper (Army B4 or USMC SS) whether they are using Army or USMC scopes is going to use the same range estimation formula, which is why the "mildot math" works no matter which reticle you happen to be using.
Jimro
CharlieDeltaJuliet
New member
Jimro, I wouldn't take that website to heart. That's why I honestly trust the knowledge of people over the Internet... I get what you are saying about the "math". Years ago when I first started using a mil/mil scope I was made fun of. I was told it was too confusing and would never catch on, MOA adjustments were the way to go. Today all but one of my high powered rifles have mil/mil scopes on them.
I have always preferred a SFP scope too, so a mil/mil is perfect for that.
I have always preferred a SFP scope too, so a mil/mil is perfect for that.
I'm sure glad we're not discussing precious and standard metals where there's two numbers of ounces in a pound; one's got 16 of 'em and the other's got 12.
How 'bout the length of a mile? 2500 yards, 5280 feet, one minute of latitude, 6081 feet or 1760 yards? There's miles with each number for different standards.
How 'bout the length of a mile? 2500 yards, 5280 feet, one minute of latitude, 6081 feet or 1760 yards? There's miles with each number for different standards.
Marksinsoni
Inactive
Its ok for a factory chambered rifle. Sometimes you need to break your rifle in, just like a new car. For 308, I would not trust naything other than a PTR, H&K, or a Spring Field Armory rifle. It could be the rifle too that you have but give it a few hundred more rounds before returning it.
Don't forget a lot depends on the ammo too. Buy LC or Seneca Armory brass ammo and you will be amazed how much the ammo makes the difference. SA is little cheaper than the LC. Also start with 147g ammo on your new rifle, not that it matters but cost wise I would rather break my rifle in using cheaper rounds than go for 168g high end rounds. Never use steel case ammo either.
Don't forget a lot depends on the ammo too. Buy LC or Seneca Armory brass ammo and you will be amazed how much the ammo makes the difference. SA is little cheaper than the LC. Also start with 147g ammo on your new rifle, not that it matters but cost wise I would rather break my rifle in using cheaper rounds than go for 168g high end rounds. Never use steel case ammo either.