Rem 700 or Win model 70, which would you choose!

I think there used to be a fella..Carlos Hathcock..that might have disagreed with ya...He shot both weapons...The military stopped using the Winchester after no more CRF....He shot live targets....
Hathcock generally used the standard sniper rifle: the Winchester Model 70 .30-06 caliber rifle with the standard 8-power Unertl scope
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Carlos Hathcock had an ability to shoot that most people never have. He could probably do more with a 2 MOA rifle than than most people in the tactical competitions could do with a sub MOA rifle. He had most of his confirmed kills with his M70 but he used a Remington M40 as well as an M2.

As far as M70 being dropped after the CRF went away, by the time Hathcock was in Viet Nam the push feed had been in production for two years. I'll bet the M70's were dropped because of contracting and not because the CRF was no longer available. Remington probably won the bid because during testing it performed at least as well as the Winchester and came in at a price the Military was willing to pay.

My point really was that there are far more options available to make the M700 a target/tactical rifle over the M70. Plus I feel that for the most parts the push feed M70's and M700's operate smoother than the CRF rifles. Plus not everyone has the skills to build their own target rifles like Kraigwy, and the M700 would be a cheaper build than the M70 when you have to pay someone else to do it.
 
I thing I already mentioned that he shot both guns....(just killed more VC..many of which were snipers theirselves..with a pre-64 model 70)
Don't think for a second that these were not extremely accurate guns....

For a USMC Model 70 Vietnam Era, it needs to be a Pre-'64 action. The reason they adopted the M40 was because of the 1964 Winchester product......This is the type info I keep finding on the net....Also..Douglas medium contour barrels were used..as replacements..to keep Model 70's in service....

My point really was that there are far more options available to make the M700 a target/tactical rifle over the M70.
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I believe there are more options..(but it is not what you stated)....This may be why K_I_P stated the 700 was the chevy 350 of rifles....:D
 
Also I found the Model 70 to be a better target rifle then my M-700s. Especially for long range.

Push feed or CRF?

I think the PF Winchester rifles would give any M700 a run. However, I feel the CRF isn't geared towards a target rifle.
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Back in the days when you found more bolt guns then anything else in HP and 1000 yard matches, Winchesters Ruled, the were mostly CF pre-64s.

Having said that, I haven't found any difference in CF or PF Model 70 Actions when it comes to target rifles.

Contary to a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with the Post 64 - pre USRA Winchesters.

It's the solid flat reciever that gives the Model 70 the edge.

Having said that I find the FN Model 70s (CF) are dern good and accurate, but I'll admit I havent built any target rifles on the FN M-70 Actions.

They just haven't been out long enough to give us access to the actions.
 
Here is something to read on the history of M-70 and the Marine Corp

The United States Marine Corps purchased 373 Model 70 rifles in May, 1942. Although the Marine Corps officially used only the M1 Garand and the 1903 Springfield as sniper rifles during the Second World War, "many Winchester Model 70s showed up at training camps and in actual field use during the Pacific campaign."[10] These rifles had 24-inch sporter barrels chambered for .30-06 Springfield. These rifles had serial numbers in the 41000 to 50000 range and were fitted with leaf sights and checkered stocks with steel butt plates, one-inch sling swivels, and leather slings. It has been reported that some of these rifles were equipped with 8X Unertl telescopic sights for limited unofficial use as sniper weapons on Guadalcanal and during the Korean War. Many of the surviving rifles, after reconditioning with heavier Douglas barrels and new stocks between 1956 and 1963 at the Marine Corps match rebuild shop in Albany, Georgia, were fitted with 8X Unertl sights from M1903A1 sniper rifles. The reconditioned rifles were used in competitive shooting matches; and the United States Army purchased approximately 200 new Model 70 National Match Rifles with medium heavy barrels for match use between 1954 and 1957. Many of the reconditioned Marine Corps match rifles were used by Marine Corps snipers during the early years of the Vietnam war with M72 match ammunition loaded with 173-grain boat-tailed bullets. A smaller number of the Army's Model 70 rifles also saw combat use by Army snipers; and some were equipped with silencers for covert operations in Southeast Asia. These Model 70 rifles never achieved the status of a standard military weapon; but were used until replaced by the Remington Model 700 series bolt-action rifles which became the basis for the M40 series sniper rifle.[11]

One of the reasons the U.S. Marine Corps replaced their Winchester Model 70s was that the post-1964 variants of the Model 70 did not meet U.S. Marines' standards.[citation needed] Despite the introduction of the Remington Model 700 rifle, the pre '64 Winchester Model 70 was still used by the US Marine Corps' scout/sniper teams during the Vietnam War alongside the Remington Model 700 rifle. The original wood stocks were found to be warping in both rifles after a few years of service and both rifles were given fiberglass stocks to remedy the problem.[12] Existing Model 70s still in service have had their stocks replaced with a McMillan fiberglass stock, such as that found on the Custom Extreme Weather variant.[citation needed]

One of the best known U.S. Marine Corps snipers who used the Winchester Model 70 during the Vietnam War was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who used a Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle chambered in .30-06.[

Year I got out of the Marines 1965 Carlos won the Wimbledon Cup 1000yd with is any sight match using a Model 70 300 mag with 8X Unertl scope.
 
Lets go back to the original argument:

I think there used to be a fella..Carlos Hathcock..that might have disagreed with ya...He shot both weapons...The military stopped using the Winchester after no more CRF....He shot live targets....
Hathcock generally used the standard sniper rifle: the Winchester Model 70 .30-06 caliber rifle with the standard 8-power Unertl scope
Click to expand...

The Marine Corps didn't have a standard sniper rifle until the M40 came along. Up until that point the Marine Corps used what they could get their hands on and modify. Remington won that contract because they provided a rifle that met the Marine Corps needs at a price they were willing to pay. Don't you think that Winchester would have made a limited number of CRF M70's for the Marines or worked out the extractor issues of the Post 64 M70 faster to keep a contract?

Plus if I use your statement there then the M70 is no where near the target/tactical rifle the Finnish and Russian Mosin Nagants are they have a far more impressive track record for hitting live human targets than the M70.

I thing I already mentioned that he shot both guns....(just killed more VC..many of which were snipers theirselves..with a pre-64 model 70)
Don't think for a second that these were not extremely accurate guns....

For a USMC Model 70 Vietnam Era, it needs to be a Pre-'64 action. The reason they adopted the M40 was because of the 1964 Winchester product......This is the type info I keep finding on the net....Also..Douglas medium contour barrels were used..as replacements..to keep Model 70's in service...
Click to expand...

If you had really been looking seriously over these facts then you would know that Carlos Hathcock's M70 was a 2 MOA rifle with a pitted barrel. I wouldn't call a 2 MOA rifle an extremely accurate gun. I would say as I stated before Carlos Hathcock could do more with a 2 MOA rifle than most people could do with a sub MOA rifle.

Plus you would know that the first USMC sniper rifles of the Viet Nam were hunting rifles purchased through the PX. The second batch were mothballed match rifles that couldn't be used in service rifle competition anymore because of rule changes. It wasn't until after Viet Nam that the Corps kept the scout sniper around up until that point any units of them were disbanded when no longer needed after war time.

I originally said I thought the M70 was a better hunting rifle and the M700 a better target/tactical rifle. I stated as well that I would still use either for both uses.

My reasoning behind stating the M700 is a better than the M70 in the Target/Tactical arena is because that is the area that Remington pursued more heavily than Winchester. Factory M700 lock times are faster than M70's Pre or Post 64, granted it is only a millisecond or two faster. Far more aftermarket options for accurizing your rifle with the M700 as well vs. the M70. Plus far more options for cloned custom actions that can use the same M700 after market parts.

I know about the flat bottom receivers resisting torquing during firing and giving a larger bedding surface. However the M700 can hold its own as well especially with the smaller calibers being shot these days. They aren't torquing the action as hard as the larger calibers, plus they are in short actions which are supposed to be slightly stronger and stiffer than the LA of model 70's we have been discussing Pre-64 Viet Nam era. The post 64 action gets a bad rap, but I think it is a fine action. One advantage it has over the Pre 64 action is that everything wasn't hand fitted. So if you had to swap out parts they were easier to replace. Plus it works better as as single shot target rifle.
 
Yeah Gunny's rifle was a M-70, 2moa.

Lets think about that. The average shoulder width of a soldier is 19 inches, (hence the 19 X 40 E-Sil target).

Most Vietnamese I met were a bit smaller, lets say 17 inches. If you can shoot, the 2 MOA rifle is good to 850 yards.

Same with 1000 yard target shooting. If you can shoot, with a 2 MOA rifle, you should be able to clean the 1000 yards High Power Target (with an X-10 ring of 20 inches or 2 MOA).

The marines did have a sniper rifle prior to the M40, M1C/Ds and 1903A4s.

The Model 70s were never intended to be sniper rifles. they were target rifles. The military being the military, it was a cost factor. M-700s are cheaper then target grade M-70s. Plus the Army and Marines were getting away from the 30-06 round for the NATO.

The Army had good luck with the M14 in National Matches, so decided to put a scope on it and call it the M21 (That being the ART Leatherwood).

It worked quite well. In fact it spent less time in the maintenance shops in SE. Asia then the M-40s did.

Sure the M-40 had a faster lock time. Then even had a faster lock time then the M-24, the Army's version of the M-700. Reason being the M-24 is a long action, the M-40 is a short action.

The fast lock time is a myth, when you consider rifle fundamentals. Ever hear of "follow through".........that eliminates the faster lock time selling point.

The Army wanted the Long Action because of the future possibilities of converting them to the 300 WM. Also the M-24 was set up for iron sights in addition to the scope.

When I was running the AK NG Marksmanship Program, including the sniper program I was offered to trade our M1C/Ds for the M-24 or the M-21. I was promised if I took the M-21s I would later change them for the M-24 in 300 WM.

I chose the latter route hoping to get quality 300 WM ammo to support our 1000 yard Match program (we were using Model 70s in 300 WM).

That was in the late 80s...............we know how that turned out, the Army is just getting around to M-24s in 300 WMs.

But to the original question, having used both in competition and in sniper configuration, I like the Model 70 in the accuracy department but as mentioned its not the rifle, both are highly capable and accurate enough.

Like I said, a 2 MOA will clean the 1000 yard HP target, but you don't see many cleaned targets, not because of the rifle, but because of the shooter.
 
If you compare the higher grade (equally priced) 700's to the model 70's it's a wash. Otherwise the higher priced model 70 blows away the 700 SPS's as far as finish.
 
Yes..old roper...that is some of the info that I have picked up from the net....

kraigwy...Thanks for that knowledgeable information....

Taylorce..I did read about the 2 MOA....
 
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I have both a Remington 700 and a Winchester M70, but they are not in the same caliber. The Remington is a short action and has a bull barrel and the Winchester is a long action with a hunting barrel.

The caliber and the barrel makes a big difference in group accuracy unless you are patient enough to let the hunting barrel cool between shots. I have a hard time being that patient.

However, comparing the rifle actions alone, my Winchester has a very smooth functioning bolt (as smooth as any of my bolt action rifles including Savages and CZs). The Remington bolt is probably the least smooth of any of my rifles and is the most stiff when closing.

The Remington needed a Timney trigger and a Bell and Carlson stock change before it began to shoot like the Remington lovers led me to expect it to shoot. I am very pleased with its accuracy.

The Winchester has the factory stock and trigger and shoots very well for the first two shots usually touching if I do my part - just what you want from a hunting rifle - but barrel heating causes the next few shots to string out at about 2 o'clock.

The fit and finish on the Winchester was better from the factory and the wood is really nice with a well formed cheek rest.

The Remington even with the new stock is not in the same league from the looks department but it shoots more accurately from the bench with a bull barrel - just what you want from a target rifle.
 
I'm not really sure how important a smooth bolt is....I have seen Reminton 788's outshoot 700's many times..and they have one of the loosest wobbliest bolts ever....
 
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