Reloading 303 british for no4 enfield

B

brasscollector

New member
A friend asked me to see about helping him develope a load for his enfield rifle. He handed me a couple boxes of once-fired herters brass for inspection/cleaning. First thing I noticed was the stretch rings on the cases. I decided to section one out to have a look-see and I don't like what I see. DSCF8854.JPG
I've never run into a chamber issue like this with my own rifles, the worst I have is a 30-06 that is cut maybe .002"-.004" too long/deep. I'm assuming that this brass is junk and we are going to have to try a different approach to fire forming for this venture. I've read on other forums about people using a rubber o-ring in front of the rim to keep the case from getting pushed forward by the firing pin. Theory is that it keeps the case held back so all the stretching is done at the front of the case and these rings do not develop. Anyone ever try this? Did it work? I'm not overly familiar with the enfields so I couldn't answer specifically if the bolt face is the numbered/interchangeable type.

Edited to add: It appears the cases stretched about .045"-.050" compared to the few unfired rounds he had left over.
 
they do need special care in reloading for them, but one has to remember what the enfield rifles were made to do. and that was to work in terrible combat conditions(large chambers) with mud-snow and even dirty ammo all over the world from the 1890,s to today in certain third world countries and shooting reloads was not what they were made to do. i own 8 enfields and reload for them and keep the cases seperate for the rifles i shoot. eastbank.
 
chambers in 303 were made bigger to accommodate
all kinds of problems encountered on the battle field

you only want to set back the shoulder 2 to 4 thou.
setting dies the with die the instructions will set the
shoulder back way too far causing the case to stretch
the way you have found
measure a few fired cases at the shoulder and set the
sizing die accordingly
( with a cartridge head space gage bushing )

Even with this process, cases will not last as long as rimless cases

If you will be shooting 303 a lot I recommend getting a
broken case extractor ( not expensive )
 
Herter's brass is made by Sellier & Bellot. More likely to be the rifle than the brass. S&B makes pretty good stuff. That much stretching indicates bad headspace though.
First check the rifle's headspace(cartridges do not have headspace). Thousands of Lee-Enfields, of both models, have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC. Not even ensuring the headspace was good.
If it's a No. 4 Mk I/Mk I*(where's the rear sight? On the receiver makes it a No. 4. On the barrel makes it a No. 1 and a whole lot more expensive to fix bad headspace.) has the numbered bolt head.
Next slug the barrel. Lee-Enfield barrels can measure from .311 to .315 and be considered OK. Current factory bullets are either .311" or .312". With larger diameter cast bullets available from Montana Bullet Works. Sellier & Bellot uses .311".
"...set back the shoulder..." Does nothing and is irrelevant for a rimmed cartridge.
 
T.O'Heir --
You are correct, the 303 does not head space off
of the shoulder
BUT
Maintaining the shoulder length will prolong case life,
moving the shoulder way back each time you size the
case, will cause it to fail ( just as brasscollector has found )
Following the directions that came with the die will
move the shoulder way back

So shoulder set back is revelent and matters in the 303

This is one reason many people only neck size the 303 case
( so they do not move the shoulder )

I own 4 303 Enfields and I am lucky that moving the shoulder
back 3 thou. accommodates all of them
1- #1, 2- #4, and 1- #4 Sniper ( Man. by Savage Stevens before they
were stamped US PROPERTY )
 
I am following this thread with great interest - this afternoon I just picked up a nice No4 MK1 and need to get started with components and load data for it.

Please keep the great tips and suggestions coming!
 
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Years ago I had an Enfield No4 Mk1* and reloaded for it. The reloads developed that Yellowish ring after 2 or 3 times, so I researched it. Most of it didn't make sense to me at the time. What I did was discard the cases after 5 firings. Full length resized every time. Never had a problem.

I'm no expert at this, but I figured the case separation was one of those internet wives tales. Happened once or twice, and the rumor mill ran wild. Yes case separation happens. Happens on calibers other than .303 Brit. too. Again, I'm no expert.

Side note. With my reloads, 125 grain Sierra soft points and BLC-2 powder, the old rifle was surprisingly accurate. About 2 inch groups at 100 yards.
 
I figured the case separation was one of those internet wives tales. Happened once or twice, and the rumor mill ran wild.
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Short case life in SMLEs is a long known thing and predates the internet by generations...

Simply put, the SMLE .303 British is not built with the reloader in mind. Chambers are usually described as "generous" which means some degree of oversized.

The case headspaces on the rim, and so the part of the chamber where the rim fits was kept in close specs, the rest of the chamber, not so much.

If you full length resize, and your rifle has a standard spec chamber (which for an SMLE is actually a tight chamber and not terribly common) then your brass will last about the normal life.

If not, then brass life can be very short, I've had a full case head separation on the second reloading. I no longer use anyone's "once fired brass" in the .303. I use factory ammo fired by me, or new brass, and neck size only.
 
An enterprising fella would want to buy new brass, then open up the necks with to 9mm or larger, then adjust the sizing die to put adjust the neck down to create a "false shoulder" for the brass. On first firing, that false shoulder will help stop the forward stretch of the brass and help blow the real shoulder forward nicely.

From then on, the fireformed "wildcat" brass just needs to have the shoulder bumped back minimally on reloads.

Jimro
 
Just to clarify these were once-fired factory ammunition. He had almost two boxes (35 rounds) that had been fired through his rifle and wanted me to check them out, clean them and see about proper powder and bullets. He was going to prime, charge and seat himself. I do not own a 303 british and had no clue all the nuances of reloading for them prior to this. If it were my rifle I may go through the hassle of creating a false shoulder, annealing, etc but not likely to open myself up to doing that for others.
 
My 303 brass last 15 to 20 loads. I just retired a batch no too long ago.

The first few loads are light to medium loads followed by partial length resizing to fire form the brass, so that they effectively headspace on shoulder.

I also have a small collection of longer bolt heads. They certainly help.

-TL
 
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It's clear this gun has a lot of headspace in the rim recess. If it were tight, the shoulder would blow forward, as happens firing a parent cartridge in an Ackley Improved chamber. That severe pressure ring comes from the sides of the case being stuck to the chamber by pressure, followed by the head stretching to the rear rather more than is usual in bolt action rifles in general.

The two things you need to do have already been mentions. One is to headspace on the shoulder instead of the rim, as a lot of belted magnum rifle owners come to do to get better case life. 0.001"-0.002" shoulder setback for single-loading target rounds or magazine feeding for casual plinking is fine, and 0.002"-0.003" for stuff to be magazine fed reliably in the field would be good shoulder set-back target numbers.

For the future, the O-ring trick may be adequate or, if you know someone with a lathe, get them to turn a washer that had a rim diameter OD and is about 0.460" ID to slip over each new cartridge before chambering and firing. The thickness will have to be found by finding out what shim thickness you can put between the case head and breech face and still close the bolt. Using one of these approaches will get the shoulders blown forward without creating a thinned pressure ring, and the cases should be sized to headspace on the shoulder instead of the rim thereafter.
 
Herter's brass is made by Sellier & Bellot. More likely to be the rifle than the brass. S&B makes pretty good stuff.
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If the brass is made by s&b then throw them away. I have some s&b brass and most of it separates after 2 firings. I have had best luck with rem brass.

And like others have stated I keep my brass separate between my rifles and only neck size. The rem brass last several firings. Actually I don't believe I have ever had a rem 303 cases fail.
 
I've read on other forums about people using a rubber o-ring in front of the rim to keep the case from getting pushed forward by the firing pin. Theory is that it keeps the case held back so all the stretching is done at the front of the case and these rings do not develop. Anyone ever try this? Did it work? I'm not overly familiar with the enfields so I couldn't answer specifically if the bolt face is the numbered/interchangeable type.
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Reloaders are infatuated with the firing pin and then they are impressionable, I say think about it and still after all these years the same question is asked over and over with the same answers; and then? There is the poison tree; don't listen to him:eek::).

The 303 British Enfiled has rear locking lugs, I know, that is confusing but when the lugs are at the rear of the bolt the part of the bolt between the lugs and chamber bends/humps. Even if head space is reduced and the case off sets case travel the bolt still humps/bends; that is the way it is.

And then there is part of the case that off sets the length of the chamber; the rim. No one measures, even if they did measure the thickness of the rim and found it to be thin there is nothing that can be done about it because case manufacturers do not sell cases to reloaders that know what they are doing.

The nicest thing to ever happen to the 303 British case is P.O. Ackley, Ackely took the taper out of the case and increased the angle of the shoulder; meaning the case could be reduced by sizing the case to the shoulder of the chamber instead of the rim.

And then I always say there is something about the sequence of events that happen between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel reloaders do not understand. And reloaders are gullible, they believe it is so cool to repeat the story about the firing pin. The story goes something like the firing pin strikes the primer and then the whole shebang (case, powder. bullet and primer) take off for the front of the chamber. And I always say I have killer firing pins; my firing pins crush the primer before the case, powder and bullet know their little buddy, the primer, has been crushed. And then most get confused and blame me; that is OK because.

My primers when struck can launch the case forward. Normal about right here is suggest reloaders think about it, it is a volunteer thing. Remember, if the reloader chooses not to think about it gets complicated; With the case shoulder against the shoulder of the chamber the rim failed to hold the case back. In the sequence of things the case body expands and locks onto the chamber.

REMBER: The primer drove the case forward, and the case head is no longer against the bolt face. When this happens and pressure builds, the case body locks onto the chamber and the case head is driven back against the bolt face. Meaning? The only way all of this stuff can is for the case to stretch between the case head and case body. Ine more time, I am the fan of cutting down on case travel.

And I always ask how much clearance is there between the front of the rim or how much clearance is there between the back of the rim and bolt face when the case is driven forward.

In the big inning cases had shoulders with long tappers, that goes for the case bodies, most cases had long tappers. Again, P.O. Ackely was the best thing to happen to cases with long tappers on the case body and shoulders, these cases included the 300 H&H. Instead of a rim the H&H has a belt.

and then there are reloaders that believe the shoulder moves, as always I say think about it but all I can do is make most mad and or confuse them. If my shoulder moves when I pull the trigger the case stretches between the case head and case body and friends and reloaders that is the beginning of case head separation.

So? What is it I want to avoid? I want to prevent the firing pin from driving my case shoulder forward; I know, it is a cute saying but I have killer firing pins and I want to cut down on case travel.

F. Guffey
 
I didn't think about the rear locking lugs. Same as with a Marlin 1895 or a Remington 788, rear lugs leave a span of bolt and receiver steel between them and the bolt face that stretches more than front lugs leave room for, so if the headspace isn't loose, then the receiver is stretching. Indeed, in the 1895, M. L. McPherson used unexpected case growth as an excess pressure sign. That should be heeded similarly, here, if the headspace isn't found to be off.

I would look at getting some H4895, which handles reduced loading well, and see if he can't form cases at lower pressure than normal peak peak pressure with it.

I've gone back and forth on what is responsible for pushing the cartridge forward in a chamber. It probably deserves an designed test. For those not following, standard primer flash holes are too small to vent primer gas before the primer backs out of its pocket like a little piston. It is then re-seated when the case moves back (low pressure load) or stretches at the pressure ring to let the head move back (high pressure load). The force of a backing out primer is great enough that Garand's first semi-auto rifle design was primer actuated. Unfortunately for Garand, the military decided to start crimping primer pockets to prevent primers getting loose in machine guns, and that effectively prevented the primer back-out his design required and he had to go back to the drawing board.

But here's the thing, crimped military rounds still form thinned pressure rings in large headspace chambers when fired, so something other than the primer is driving them forward. Inertia from loading would do that, too, assuming the cartridge doesn't bounce back off the shoulder (and I don't know that it does). So would the firing pin start it moving forward. So I'm not sure if it isn't a combination of all those things happening that moves the case forward. It would be interesting to try to isolate those variables in a test.
 
But here's the thing, crimped military rounds still form thinned pressure rings in large headspace chambers when fired, so something other than the primer is driving them forward. Inertia from loading would do that, too, assuming the cartridge doesn't bounce back off the shoulder (and I don't know that it does). So would the firing pin start it moving forward. So I'm not sure if it isn't a combination of all those things happening that moves the case forward. It would be interesting to try to isolate those variables in a test.
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I agree, again, I had a friend that built 4 magnificent rifles, he made the reamers and chambered the barrels. He went to the firing range with his new wildcats and had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 rounds fired. I suggested he could have determined if that would happen before he left the shop, I suggested I could have met him at the range and fixed the problem at the range long enough to all him to fire form his cases I suggested I could have formed the cases before he fired them. I suggested he could have used my formed wildcat cases.

And I have fired cases in chambers with .127" clearance between the shoulder of the chamber and case shoulder. When the cases were fired the case head did not separate from the case body and the shoulder did not move.
Again, I have said there has to be something about sizing a case a reloader does not understand and there is something reloaders do not understand that happens between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel.

I do not believe it is necessary to reinvent reloading and all the testing is not going to change anything :rolleyes: Reloaders are infatuated with bumping the shoulder, I insist I can not move the shoulder back on a case with a die with case body support. I can move the shoulder on a case back; but when fished the case looks strange to most. When I move the shoulder back the shoulder/case body juncture takes on the appearance of an accordion or it looks like a reloader made an attempt to make a case with bellows.

When experiments are done there is a chance the person doing the experiment does not understand the results but feel compel to make-up rational.

Unclenick, thank you,

F. Guffey
 
No, Mr. Guffey, thank you. I completely missed the rear bolt lug factor.

I did not mean to suggest testing the case moving mechanisms are any sort of necessity. The guns would all shoot just as they did before such testing resolved anything. Rather it would be interesting purely for the satisfaction of knowing the result. Few would care what it found, though.

One of our pistolsmith members opined that about 70% of the 1911 pistols he saw were actually headspacing on their extractor hooks. When in-battery, their chamber case mouth shoulders were too far forward for the cartridge case mouths to reach, so the extractor hook caught the case rims and stopped the cartridges going further forward and held them against the firing pin strike. I'm sure the same thing happens in rifles with gross headspace, so that, beyond the gap the extractor allows between breech face and head, they can go no further. Again, mostly, the gun owners don't know these things are happening.

That reminds me, though, I also didn't think to suggest looking at the Enfield's extractor to see how far forward the claw is from the bolt face. If that distance is shorter than the case head stretches back, it's more evidence that steel is stretching too much under pressure.
 
If I remember correctly (always even odds at best these days) the rear locking lugs don't matter up to about 30,000 psi pressure (highly scientific, I know, sorry) at least based on PO Ackley's lugless bolt tests, as long as the chamber and cartridge are "clean and dry" and the headspace is appropriately adjusted. Any lubrication on the cartridge (which is why match loads for Enfields perform different in the rain) will change that equation. So some H4895 low pressure fire forming loads would be a great solution.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that if the shoulder is moved forward enough, then brass stretch should be minimal as the firing pin pushes the brass forward to contact shoulder to chamber instead of rim to chamber. I'm not sure I trust the O ring method to push a shoulder that far forward as I've seen brass stretch to crack on a 30-06 I erroneously headspaced, the claw kept the rear back just fine. For a few thousandths yes, but for more than that, no.

Jimro
 
The O-ring trick is not adequate. It does not fix bad headspace. It's one of the many daft and frankly unsafe ideas promulgated on the internet. Other's like it are feeler gauges, sizing to headspace on the shoulder(headspace is a rifle manufacturing tolerance and has nothing to do with the case), bits of tape, etc., etc.
"...Reloaders are infatuated with bumping the shoulder..." Yep. Most amazing is when they say "bump it back 2 thou." And it doesn't apply to rimmed cases.
"...to ever happen to the 303 British case is P.O. Ackley..." Elwood Epps, Orillia, Ont. (The shop is a place you really need to see to believe.) Ackley was just a consultant. Elwood increased the shoulder angle to 35 degrees and decreased the body taper by over 50 thou. Still headspaces on the rim
 
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