reloading 223 ?

R

rebs

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Which component effects velocity the most in hand loads, is it the case mouth tension, the the exact amount of powder in each round, the primer or the weight of each individual bullets ?

Here is a couple of my chrono tests
S&W Sport 16" barrel
55 gr Hornady soft point
H335 = 24.0 gr
cci 400 primer
Lake city case once fired

H335 powder 24.0 gr

2726, 2615, 2587, 2719, 2648

CFE223 powder 27.3 gr everything else the same

2681,2601,2702, 2637

Is this pretty much the norm or should the velocity of each round be closer together ?
 
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In your case, the primer.

You are using two ball powders, you should step up to a CCI 450 or #41 primer to get more consistent ignition.

Jimro
 
With a 140 fps es I'd say your charge weights are probably varying by at least .5 grains or more. If you hand weight each charge and try and keep them within .1 grain your ES Should be close to single digits
 
So by the math your ES calculates out to 139 and yes that's a pretty high number. My question is what's your method for powder charging ? If your just doing a single "dump" then I would suspect this is your cause. You need to throw about .2gr under your desired charge then trickle up. You using a quality scale ? This could cause more charge inconsistencies. In the past I used the trickle method and my ES's were averaging about 45fps. Could also be your chronograph, my Chrony Alpha master gets fussy reading in low angle sunlight, or if its passing sun and clouds. Your components are basically the same as me and I do see an occasional 100+ fps ES , and I say to myself "what was up with those loads ??" But I don't beat myself up over sporadic larger ES's I have seen excellent accuracy with ES's up in the 60's , and lousy accuracy with ES's that were under 15 fps ES per my data.(and I've tested over 400 loads of .223 and .308). ES's can be perplexing to read into.. LOL
 
I am using an RCBS balance beam scale with an RCBS powder dump with the baffle. I dump and weigh each load, they are consistent to within +or- 1/10th of a grain. Maybe I should be dumping 2 gr lower and trickling the last ?
Are the CCI #41 primers magnum primers or just a harder cup ?
 
Agree here with most- Your ES is way out there. Need to fix that before you worry about other things. Now while a primer can make that much difference, it would not vary that much from one shot to the next. I switched from Rem 7 1/2 Bench Primers to CCI-BR4's and I had a gain of over 80 fps. But when I shoot all my shots are with in 10 fps. There are a few things that come to mind about your ES. Case prep from one to the other, Holding rifle to shoulder with same amout of pressure.
 
I am using once fired LC cases that have been cleaned sized and deprimed, pockets swagged and cleaned. I have some CCI 450 magnum and #41 magnum primers so I just seated 30 of each to give a try. I will load them after dinner. I am going to load them the same as I did the others, changing only one thing at a time, the primer. Then I will load another batch trickling the powder for each round. By changing one thing at a time maybe I can narrow the problem down to the cause.
I'll post my results after a trip to the range.
 
I'm interested to see the results myself - I have long felt like mag primers were more consistent when using ball powders but I haven't actually taken the time to chrono many of mine. Just found the sweet spot for accuracy and loaded up. I intend to get out this week and chrono a number of my favorite loads in fact.
 
After we both chrono again, let's compare notes.

Since magnum primers are recommended for ball powders in 223. Can you use CCI #41 primers for all powders used in 223 for firing in an AR ?

I occasionally use 3031 powder for my ar reloads, can CCI #41 primers be used ?
 
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Sounds like a plan. I'll see if I can get out this week for some.

Yes, AFAIK CCI mil-spec primers are considered magnums and can be used for any powders - but I wouldn't simply substitute them into a near-max load you may have already worked up with non-mag primers. They can (not necessarily will) increase pressures a little. Backing off an existing load by half grain and re-working back up is wise to make sure you're not too hot. If you start working up a new load combo with magnum or mil-spec primers, no worries (assuming you are checking for over-pressure signs, etc).

I always use CCI magnum primers with IMR stick powder for my Garand; besides having a thicker cup (like the mil-spec ones), I feel I get better consistency as the case fill % is significantly less than my other '06 loads.
 
Which component effects velocity the most in hand loads
Click to expand...

That would be powder. I am wondering if you may not have set up your chrony at the proper distance to get constant results. The speeds you are getting are pretty low for the powder charge you are using. If you are dropping the same charge each time, I would expect to see fps more like 2,900 or 3,100 fps specially with the CFE223 charge.

Not knowing your neck tension or if your dies are resizing properly, I would recommend using the Lee FCD for 223 with a slight crimp to insure a consistent powder burn, but be careful not to get to over pressure on your reloads.

First try some factory loads with the Chrony to get a standard reference point then go to your reloads. Second, crimp some rounds and see if that helps.

It is possible that none of this may help due to a over sized gas port on your Sport. You maybe losing too much gas because of the gas port?

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim
 
Which component effects velocity the most in hand loads, is it the case mouth tension, the the exact amount of powder in each round, the primer or the weight of each individual bullets ?

Here is a couple of my chrono tests
S&W Sport 16" barrel
55 gr Hornady soft point
H335 = 24.0 gr
cci 400 primer
Lake city case once fired

H335 powder 24.0 gr

2726, 2615, 2587, 2719, 2648

CFE223 powder 27.3 gr everything else the same

2681,2601,2702, 2637

Is this pretty much the norm or should the velocity of each round be closer together ?

This was without the sun shade on the chrono and I believe the chrono a little further from the muzzle



Last years chrono results as follows

Hornady 55 gr soft point
LC once fired case
CCI 400 primer

H335 24.0 gr
2784
2776
2749

H335 24.6 gr
2941
2926
2969

H335 25.0 gr
3008
3029
3011

IMR 3031 22.5 gr
2726
2745
2754

I believe the chrono was a little further from the muzzle and he put the sun shade on the chrono
 
I would definitely try out the mag primers with the ball powders. Most manuals, they suggest mag primers for ball powders in order to get a more consistent burn.
 
I would disagree with above...
If you were bench shooting with a turn bolt rifle,
Then I'd agree with them.

A 16" barrel, off the shelf AR without a tuned gas system, lapped in bolt or closed up headspace, your results are about typical, and actually better than most.

The untuned gas system alone will produce 75 to 150 FPS variations between rounds...
 
I believe the chrono was a little further from the muzzle and he put the sun shade on the chrono
Click to expand...

That step alone seems to lower the ES of many a load... :D

A 16" barrel, off the shelf AR without a tuned gas system, lapped in bolt or closed up headspace, your results are about typical, and actually better than most.

The untuned gas system alone will produce 75 to 150 FPS variations between rounds...
Click to expand...

Anyone who is advertising to "tune" an AR gas system is just selling something :rolleyes: The AR gas system is just a bleed off, either the load meets the pressure timing requirements or it doesn't, and if it doesn't the symptoms are way more obvious than a high ES for a load.

Of course even how you hold the rifle between shots is good for 50 or so fps differences, no matter the type of rifle.

Jimro
 
I'm going to be shooting almost the same load of H335 on Monday This will be my first time working up loads using H335 . I will also be using LC brass and CCI #400 primers . The one difference I see is I'm starting per Sierra manual for AR loads at 25gr and ending .3gr over max at 27gr .

I'll come back and post my results :)

FWIW , I'll be testing IMR 4320 for the first time as well
 
From my experience with my Bushmaster 16" heavy barrel I found a few good accuracy nodes at about 2650 fps and then again at 2900. Per my data anything over 3000 fps seems to be lesser accuracy. This is using inexpensive Hornady bulk 55 FMJ cannalure type bullets. I seem to be right around 1 moa, but I see a fair amount of inconsistencies so I refrain from bragging I have a "1 moa all day long" AR..
 
Rebs and Ifishsum,

CCI told me the #41 primer is identical to the #450, except the anvil has shorter legs at a wider angle to reduce ignition sensitivity to military spec levels. You do need the magnum formulation with the old Western Canon series of powders (WC844, aka H335; WC846, aka BL-C(2); WC852 aka H380; etc.) as their deterrent chemistry doesn't light easily. Allan Jones said CCI changed their magnum priming formulation in 1989 specifically to light those powders.

Currently, Ramshot spherical propellants and some of the newer Alliant spherical propellants, like Power Pro 1200-R, have more modern deterrent coating chemistries that don't inhibit ignition quite so much and don't need the hotter magnum primers. If you want a military sensitivity spec primer that is not magnum, Federal GMM205MAR primers have military sensitivity. Federal told me they are identical to the 205M primer, except the cup is thicker, which was their way of arriving at the military sensitivity spec.

If you are having problems with extreme velocity spread, the first place I look is at is having the chronograph at least 15 feet from the muzzle. I've seen too many false sensor triggerings from powder debris to trust closer spacing with a rifle. A short barrel that doesn't let powder burn completely in the bore will be especially bad at flinging powder grains around.

The second thing I look at is primer seating. Read the article I linked to, and you will find reference to "setting the bridge" of a primer. The "bridge" is the thickness of priming mix between the inverted tip of the anvil and the bottom of the primer cup. The primers are designed so that once the anvil feet find the bottom of the primer pocket you need to push the primer cup in an additional 0.002-0.004" (called reconsolidating the primer) to compress the foil (usually paper, but still called a foil from percussion cap days) and set the thickness of that bridge for optimal sensitivity. There is a tool you can buy call the K&M Primer Gauge tool that will let you measure this, but using it is slow going and most folks get there just by seating fairly hard by feel. The late Dan Hackett commented:

There is some debate about how deeply primers should be seated. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this, but I have experimented with seating primers to different depths and seeing what happens on the chronograph and target paper, and so far I’ve obtained my best results seating them hard, pushing them in past the point where the anvil can be felt hitting the bottom of the pocket. Doing this, I can almost always get velocity standard deviations of less than 10 feet per second, even with magnum cartridges and long-bodied standards on the ’06 case, and I haven’t been able to accomplish that seating primers to lesser depths.

Dan Hackett
Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Inc., Pub. (R.I.P.), Manchester, CT, 1995, p. 271.
Click to expand...
 
To make sure I understand the CCI small rifle primer progression .

#400 were redesigned to have a harder cup ?

#450 have a harder cup then #400 making them a better choice in a AR/floating firing pin type of firearm ?

#41 Have the same cup as the #450 but also have different internal dimensions to make them even less sensitive then the #450

Now I've been using the #400 for my AR's for about 1500rds . They have worked just fine but I've only used IMR stick powders . Would you recommend just going with the #450 from now on regardless of powders or are the possibilities of slam fire great enough in the AR platform that the #41 are really the best way to go ?

I'm asking because I'll just go ahead and buy 5k of which ever because I want to use a ball powder like H335 for a more consistent powder throw . In this particular case this would be for general use and not for high accuracy match shooting . Further more , I've used Alliant power pro 2000mr for 308 with some success . I don't remember seeing any 223 load data at the time . Can 2000mr be used in a 223 like most other 308 powders ?

EDIT : I found some 223 data using 2000mr but they start at 68gr bullets and only go heavier ???:confused:
 
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Metel- CCI400 redesigned?. When did this happen?. I never had luck with them in my 223- Pierced primers all the time. Switched to 450 and BR4's. Never had the problem again. This is the last info I have. Not sure how old it is.
 

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