As a result of a recent book about the US Marines at the Chosin Reservoir in Korea during the winter of 1950. The book states that the Marines said that almost all US militayy weapons un use including the .30 carbine, the BAR, the Colt 45 automtic and the Browning machine guns were useless becauseof the 10 to 30 degree weather encountered at the Chosin reservoir. Massad Ayoob and some other gun writers have accepted this uncritically and used it to attempt to evaluate the reliability of current guns.
Since several people I know have asked about this and it came up in Short Bursts threadon the effectiveness of the .30 calober carbine I am posting spme information on the actul facts.
What happened at the Chosin was a series of battles as the Chinese IX Army Group attacked and attempted to destroy the US Army X Corps.
The X Corps consisted of three divisions, the 1st Marine Division, the 3rd Infantry Division, and the 7th Infantry Division. The 1st Marine Division and the 7th Infantry Division were at the Chosin. The 1st Marine Division fought on the west side of the reservoir, and the 7th Infantry Divison foight on the east side.
The Chinese committed nine divisions against them. THe weather was very cold. The battles were fought between November 27-December 10, 1950. During this period the temperature seldom rose above zero and fell to 20 to 30 degrees below zero at night.
What is significant about this is that the the 1st Marine Division and the 7th Infantry Division fought in the same environment at the same time. The conditions were the same for both divisions. Both used the same weapons: M1 Garands, BARs, M2 carbines, Colt .45 automatics, and Browning machine guns. Both used the same ammunition. Both were heavily engged. The The 1st Marine Division suffered 2,621 casualties, and the 7th Infantry Division had 2,760 casualties.
This is critical in evaluating the weapons problems reported by the Marines. They reported major problems with their BARs, carbines, .45 automatics and, Browning machine guns, stating, in fact, that all their infantry weapons were almost useless except for their M1 Garands. This certainly happened, but the 7th Infantry Division did not have the same problems. For that matter neither did the Chinese who used a mixture of American, Russian, German, and Japanese weapons. The question is why?
It's a matter of historical record that no large Marine Corps units had ever fought in severe cold weather before the Chosin Reservoir. The 7th Infantry Division had fought in cold weather in the Aleutians during World War Two a few years before. Many of its officers and NCOs were experiencd in the special kinds of maintenance needed to keep weapons functioning in sub-zero weather.
It's worth noting that the 1st marine Division stayed in Korea for the rest of the war and fought during the wunters of 1951, 1952 and 1953. They used the same types of weapons and ammunition as they had used at the Chosin. They did not report the problems they had encountered in 1950. Obviously something had changed.
The reason that the Marines had their problem and the Army division did not would appear to be that the Marines had not been trained in the proper techniques. If this was not the cause, we must come up with some other explaination; and I have never seen one proposed.
This is not a criticisim of the Marines who fought at the Chosin. They fought effectively and inflicted heavy casualties on the Chinese and broke out of the trap. If there was a failure in their training, that was not the fault of the Marines who fought at the Chosin.
Since several people I know have asked about this and it came up in Short Bursts threadon the effectiveness of the .30 calober carbine I am posting spme information on the actul facts.
What happened at the Chosin was a series of battles as the Chinese IX Army Group attacked and attempted to destroy the US Army X Corps.
The X Corps consisted of three divisions, the 1st Marine Division, the 3rd Infantry Division, and the 7th Infantry Division. The 1st Marine Division and the 7th Infantry Division were at the Chosin. The 1st Marine Division fought on the west side of the reservoir, and the 7th Infantry Divison foight on the east side.
The Chinese committed nine divisions against them. THe weather was very cold. The battles were fought between November 27-December 10, 1950. During this period the temperature seldom rose above zero and fell to 20 to 30 degrees below zero at night.
What is significant about this is that the the 1st Marine Division and the 7th Infantry Division fought in the same environment at the same time. The conditions were the same for both divisions. Both used the same weapons: M1 Garands, BARs, M2 carbines, Colt .45 automatics, and Browning machine guns. Both used the same ammunition. Both were heavily engged. The The 1st Marine Division suffered 2,621 casualties, and the 7th Infantry Division had 2,760 casualties.
This is critical in evaluating the weapons problems reported by the Marines. They reported major problems with their BARs, carbines, .45 automatics and, Browning machine guns, stating, in fact, that all their infantry weapons were almost useless except for their M1 Garands. This certainly happened, but the 7th Infantry Division did not have the same problems. For that matter neither did the Chinese who used a mixture of American, Russian, German, and Japanese weapons. The question is why?
It's a matter of historical record that no large Marine Corps units had ever fought in severe cold weather before the Chosin Reservoir. The 7th Infantry Division had fought in cold weather in the Aleutians during World War Two a few years before. Many of its officers and NCOs were experiencd in the special kinds of maintenance needed to keep weapons functioning in sub-zero weather.
It's worth noting that the 1st marine Division stayed in Korea for the rest of the war and fought during the wunters of 1951, 1952 and 1953. They used the same types of weapons and ammunition as they had used at the Chosin. They did not report the problems they had encountered in 1950. Obviously something had changed.
The reason that the Marines had their problem and the Army division did not would appear to be that the Marines had not been trained in the proper techniques. If this was not the cause, we must come up with some other explaination; and I have never seen one proposed.
This is not a criticisim of the Marines who fought at the Chosin. They fought effectively and inflicted heavy casualties on the Chinese and broke out of the trap. If there was a failure in their training, that was not the fault of the Marines who fought at the Chosin.