Reliability of revolvers vs. semi-autos
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In my personal experience (not repeating any stories), autos are subject to problems almost by their nature. Generally, these are readily overcome by some form of immediate action. Of course, these failures could be fatal in a serious situation. Autos are also ammunition sensitive, much more so than revolvers.
But I have had more cases of completely disabling failure from revolvers. I have had an S&W hammer pivot pin break, a Colt cylinder stop break, a Colt hammer break completely off just below the thumb piece, and a Colt SAA break its firing pin. These problems were all corrected in the shop, except the S&W, which went back to the factory. But there was no immediate action that would fix them.
Jim
But I have had more cases of completely disabling failure from revolvers. I have had an S&W hammer pivot pin break, a Colt cylinder stop break, a Colt hammer break completely off just below the thumb piece, and a Colt SAA break its firing pin. These problems were all corrected in the shop, except the S&W, which went back to the factory. But there was no immediate action that would fix them.
Jim
Stephen A. Camp
Staff In Memoriam
Hello, all. Like the previous poster noted, autopistols may be more prone to malfunction and stoppages can usually be cleared quickly while revolver stoppages require more time and may be related to parts breakage. We've all had autos that required some work before they were reliable, but after that, they just work and work and work. While I've had fewer "problems" with revolvers in that area, the problems I have experienced were worse. Example: firing pin broke after exactly one shot from a S&W M10; trigger stop in old M19 moved foreward and jammed gun's action; and the pawl tip broke in an S&W M15! Anything made by man can malfunction and this is why it's doubly important to check one's weapons religiously. Best to all.
The 2 worst revolver stoppages I've had:
Crud under the extractor star.
Extractor rod backed out and jammed the cyl.
Both caused a total failure, but were easily fixed. As Mr. Camp says, check them often. I was the cause of both problems.
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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/can.html
Crud under the extractor star.
Extractor rod backed out and jammed the cyl.
Both caused a total failure, but were easily fixed. As Mr. Camp says, check them often. I was the cause of both problems.
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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/can.html
Revolvers are more reliable in my opinion. The magazine is both the strong point and the weak point of an automatic. Completely doing away with the feeding and ejection cycle increases reliability. Mr. Camp mentioned breaking a firing pin in a M10 Smith. I broke one on a Detective Special once, but my Kahr K9 broke one too. They are both machines and machines break down.
Generally speaking revolvers have a reliability edge and autos have a firepower edge. But something to remember is the first few shots are much more important than the seventh and eighth shot, where the autos quick magazine change gives it an advantage.
Generally speaking revolvers have a reliability edge and autos have a firepower edge. But something to remember is the first few shots are much more important than the seventh and eighth shot, where the autos quick magazine change gives it an advantage.
Im glad someone brought this up.
I had a taurus .38 that would not fire if i shot it using double action. but if i cocked it and shot it it worked fine. I thought this was odd being that revolvers are so simplistic. It was not 100%. sometimes it would work with DA but 5 out of 10 shots would not fire. I didnt really mind, being that i normally cock it first anyway and never used it as a carry weapon. I was at the range one day and a guy there had a .44 S&W revolver. i observed while he shot and noticed his would malfunction the exact way mine did. I asked if he knew why and he said "its normal, alot of revolvers do it"
I never did find out what the problem was. I gave the gun to my younger cousin and he never got it repaired. Any idea as to what this (what seems pretty common) problem may be?
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TIM : )
I had a taurus .38 that would not fire if i shot it using double action. but if i cocked it and shot it it worked fine. I thought this was odd being that revolvers are so simplistic. It was not 100%. sometimes it would work with DA but 5 out of 10 shots would not fire. I didnt really mind, being that i normally cock it first anyway and never used it as a carry weapon. I was at the range one day and a guy there had a .44 S&W revolver. i observed while he shot and noticed his would malfunction the exact way mine did. I asked if he knew why and he said "its normal, alot of revolvers do it"
I never did find out what the problem was. I gave the gun to my younger cousin and he never got it repaired. Any idea as to what this (what seems pretty common) problem may be?
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TIM : )
Guy B. Meredith
New member
Revolvers, from my observations, are generally more reliable in day to day use. The auto requires a user who is willing to give it the proper attention. It is uncommon NOT to see some auto jam or other failure any day at the range. On the other hand, it is rare to see problems with revolvers.
Autos are prone to more field correctable problems than revolvers and while there are potential catastrophic failures in revolvers, the autos have their own corresponding list of catastrophic failures. Since I clean my guns religiously every couple hundred rounds the only problem I've had with my revolvers was a loose mainspring tension screw. Less than five minutes with a screw driver fixed that.
The auto is sensitive to ammo loads and bullet types resulting in misfires, jams and action problems which require the user to take some action. Revolvers cosume just about anything within industrial guidelines and some that is not. When the ammo is bad you can just pull the trigger for the next round. In severe conditions the .357 magnum can be made to use a wide variety of ammo including some not made for use in the gun--again this is in severe situations and not to be tried without pressing need.
Autos are also more prone to embarassing things like magazine spring fatigue and grunge when in long storage loaded in anticipation of defense situations.
Autos are prone to more field correctable problems than revolvers and while there are potential catastrophic failures in revolvers, the autos have their own corresponding list of catastrophic failures. Since I clean my guns religiously every couple hundred rounds the only problem I've had with my revolvers was a loose mainspring tension screw. Less than five minutes with a screw driver fixed that.
The auto is sensitive to ammo loads and bullet types resulting in misfires, jams and action problems which require the user to take some action. Revolvers cosume just about anything within industrial guidelines and some that is not. When the ammo is bad you can just pull the trigger for the next round. In severe conditions the .357 magnum can be made to use a wide variety of ammo including some not made for use in the gun--again this is in severe situations and not to be tried without pressing need.
Autos are also more prone to embarassing things like magazine spring fatigue and grunge when in long storage loaded in anticipation of defense situations.
Edmund Rowe
New member
Several years ago I helped organize, design, and run some "practical" matches at my local club. These were non-IPSC affiliated but we used IPSC rules. We tried some interesting things like revolver-only matches and "Any Gun" matches.
Our first revolver match was very eye-opening. Keep in mind this isn't casual range shooting, this is engaging multiple targets from multiple positions with reloading and the timer going. Maybe unrealistic for most civilian firearms usage, but the artificial stress created must have influence most of the malfunctions we saw:
-.38 revolver cylinder won't close with a .357 cartridge in one chamber
-cylinder not shut completely
-not releasing the trigger completely between shots
-Badly sized cartridge in full moon clip prevents entire full moon from chambering
-loading all cartridges backwards in a full moon clip (cylinder tends to bind) (Yes, some full moon clips have a front and back!)
-Bad timing. Wheelgun goes BANG! BANG! click BANG! click and the shooter tries to go "around the clock" hoping the cartridge goes off again the next time around. By the way this is a great time to find out if you're jerking on the trigger.
-Screw backs out of S+W frame so on reload the cylinder and crane go PLOP on the ground. Saw this happen twice in one day to 2 different 625s.
-Old leather holster: On draw, sight picture messed up from the brown fuzz on the front sight!!
-Squib load: BANG BANG pop BANGGG and then later it's "How did my barrel get bulged??"
-Empty case hangs up on grip panel preventing speed loader from chambering.
-One cartridge hangs up in speedloader so you only loaded 5, not 6. Where's the "hole?" We'll find out in the next 6 trigger pulls.
-Shooter loses count. I dunno how you lose count from 1 to 6 but this guy couldn't figure out why he ran dry until I pointed out he was reloading at strange moments and dumping live rounds on the ground.
-Shooter uses speedloader to reload. That's good. Shooter uses wadcutters. That's OK. Shooter uses wadcutters in speedloader at a night match: BAD MOVE! On the reload I could hear all 6 rounds clatter to the table on the stage in question. Ever try to line up 6 wadcutters in a speedloader at night??
OK, note that most all of these malfs can be avoided by good shooter/firearm relations and management. Good firearm manipulation and practice/training and someone can be a very good and reliable shooter with a wheelgun.
Another note: the rash of wheelgun malfs we saw were with people who were no strangers to action pistol competition. I think we were going into the revolver match from a complete cold start, though.
To me, the key is NOT to think, "HA! Now I will never have malfunctions because I have a revolver!" A good shooter will know his equipment.
A more positive story: One of our later revolver matches I shot with my 5 shot SP-101. To my surprise I came out 5th out of 12 shooters even though the match was designed for 6 shooters.
Hope I helped.
Edmund
Our first revolver match was very eye-opening. Keep in mind this isn't casual range shooting, this is engaging multiple targets from multiple positions with reloading and the timer going. Maybe unrealistic for most civilian firearms usage, but the artificial stress created must have influence most of the malfunctions we saw:
-.38 revolver cylinder won't close with a .357 cartridge in one chamber
-cylinder not shut completely
-not releasing the trigger completely between shots
-Badly sized cartridge in full moon clip prevents entire full moon from chambering
-loading all cartridges backwards in a full moon clip (cylinder tends to bind) (Yes, some full moon clips have a front and back!)
-Bad timing. Wheelgun goes BANG! BANG! click BANG! click and the shooter tries to go "around the clock" hoping the cartridge goes off again the next time around. By the way this is a great time to find out if you're jerking on the trigger.
-Screw backs out of S+W frame so on reload the cylinder and crane go PLOP on the ground. Saw this happen twice in one day to 2 different 625s.
-Old leather holster: On draw, sight picture messed up from the brown fuzz on the front sight!!
-Squib load: BANG BANG pop BANGGG and then later it's "How did my barrel get bulged??"
-Empty case hangs up on grip panel preventing speed loader from chambering.
-One cartridge hangs up in speedloader so you only loaded 5, not 6. Where's the "hole?" We'll find out in the next 6 trigger pulls.
-Shooter loses count. I dunno how you lose count from 1 to 6 but this guy couldn't figure out why he ran dry until I pointed out he was reloading at strange moments and dumping live rounds on the ground.
-Shooter uses speedloader to reload. That's good. Shooter uses wadcutters. That's OK. Shooter uses wadcutters in speedloader at a night match: BAD MOVE! On the reload I could hear all 6 rounds clatter to the table on the stage in question. Ever try to line up 6 wadcutters in a speedloader at night??
OK, note that most all of these malfs can be avoided by good shooter/firearm relations and management. Good firearm manipulation and practice/training and someone can be a very good and reliable shooter with a wheelgun.
Another note: the rash of wheelgun malfs we saw were with people who were no strangers to action pistol competition. I think we were going into the revolver match from a complete cold start, though.
To me, the key is NOT to think, "HA! Now I will never have malfunctions because I have a revolver!" A good shooter will know his equipment.
A more positive story: One of our later revolver matches I shot with my 5 shot SP-101. To my surprise I came out 5th out of 12 shooters even though the match was designed for 6 shooters.
Hope I helped.
Edmund
There is no question that in real combat
type situation revolvers are more reliable,
if they do not have broken parts, of course;
the problem, which I believe we do not discuss here..
Day or two in the trenches with your sidearm
in your holster, exposed to a little dirt here an there, and suddenly you need to
pull it out to shoot...Opps, what a surprise!
Your favorite previously clean and reliable
semi-auto lets you down and you are managed to get a little bit killed...
Now, if only you had a revolver - first
shot cleans the barrel from junk, second
shot "cleans" the bad guy...
But, of course, a clean "home" pistol is
a different kind of a weapon...no objection
here, it could be what the doctor ordered.
type situation revolvers are more reliable,
if they do not have broken parts, of course;
the problem, which I believe we do not discuss here..
Day or two in the trenches with your sidearm
in your holster, exposed to a little dirt here an there, and suddenly you need to
pull it out to shoot...Opps, what a surprise!
Your favorite previously clean and reliable
semi-auto lets you down and you are managed to get a little bit killed...
Now, if only you had a revolver - first
shot cleans the barrel from junk, second
shot "cleans" the bad guy...
But, of course, a clean "home" pistol is
a different kind of a weapon...no objection
here, it could be what the doctor ordered.
protoolman
Moderator
Yes as a police officer who gets to choose my own weapon I choose a GP-100 Ruger. I know I can skid it down the pavement and still get it to shoot. My best Colt series 70 auto was likely to jam once in a while. My GP-100 is up to 10,000 rounds no misfires.No breakage. I never had an auto that didn't jam at least once. I had a glock, S&W , beretta, and a couple of Colts.
Just don't buy a S&W revolver they have several weak points most other brands have eliminated,(firing pins on the hammer, sideplates, flat mainsprings, latch on the end of the ejector rod etc.)
Just don't buy a S&W revolver they have several weak points most other brands have eliminated,(firing pins on the hammer, sideplates, flat mainsprings, latch on the end of the ejector rod etc.)
Cpt. John Park
New member
Dear Friends,
I once settled on a Taurus 85CH for concealed carry instead of a higher-capacity and more potent caliber of semi-auto, supposing I had a sure 5 shots.
Then one day at the range, shooting standard load .38s, it jammed. The cylinder release button had been kicked out of its groove. The cylinder wouldn't rotate, so the gun would not go "bang"!!!
Unlike clearing a stoppage with a semi-auto, there was nothing I could do to fix it on the spot. The gunsmith at the range was nice enough to work on it a few minutes for free, and fixed the problem. But it involved him taking apart all the works concealed inside the grip. The function was much more complicated than I had previously thought.
So, with the main selling point of a revolver (reliability) out the window, I went back to semi-auto.
JP
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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
I once settled on a Taurus 85CH for concealed carry instead of a higher-capacity and more potent caliber of semi-auto, supposing I had a sure 5 shots.
Then one day at the range, shooting standard load .38s, it jammed. The cylinder release button had been kicked out of its groove. The cylinder wouldn't rotate, so the gun would not go "bang"!!!
Unlike clearing a stoppage with a semi-auto, there was nothing I could do to fix it on the spot. The gunsmith at the range was nice enough to work on it a few minutes for free, and fixed the problem. But it involved him taking apart all the works concealed inside the grip. The function was much more complicated than I had previously thought.
So, with the main selling point of a revolver (reliability) out the window, I went back to semi-auto.
JP
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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
Jerky, Your problem was a weak hammer spring. Fire a DA revolver in trigger cocking mode and the hammer doesn't go back as far before it falls forward as it would if you cocked it. This gives it less momentum and if your spring is weak it will misfire in DA. Put in a new spring and it is fixed. This is not that common but I have had it happen to me, also. Another cause on a S&W is a loose frontstrap screw (strain screw).
It appears a couple of people had problems with their Taurus. Though I have not owned one, it is my opinion from what I read on the gun boards that the quality on the Taurus isn't as high as a Smith or Ruger. This is not meant as a slight to Taurus owners. If you have one and you like it, more power to you.
It appears a couple of people had problems with their Taurus. Though I have not owned one, it is my opinion from what I read on the gun boards that the quality on the Taurus isn't as high as a Smith or Ruger. This is not meant as a slight to Taurus owners. If you have one and you like it, more power to you.
Guy B. Meredith
New member
It would be instructive to have comment from some member of ICORE or someone who has competed in International Revolver Chamionship. There revolvers are the only firearm.
Again, each failure that can be had on a revolver has its counterpart on an auto. User failure included.
Again, each failure that can be had on a revolver has its counterpart on an auto. User failure included.
Protoolman, I also own (and respect)
GP-161 .357 mag. Ruger. This piece is probably the srongest among all revolvers
I've seen so far, in the same caliber.
No need to tell you how good is it.
The only semiauto pistol that never ever
gave me any trouble whatsover no matter
what is my Russian Mak in 9x18. It's so
simple in design (19 parts only), that
it just does not have enough parts to break
or jam. The worst pistol I ever shot was
factory Colt .45 ACP (not customized) -
jamed w/o mercy...People say that quality
control at Colt really sucks.
GP-161 .357 mag. Ruger. This piece is probably the srongest among all revolvers
I've seen so far, in the same caliber.
No need to tell you how good is it.
The only semiauto pistol that never ever
gave me any trouble whatsover no matter
what is my Russian Mak in 9x18. It's so
simple in design (19 parts only), that
it just does not have enough parts to break
or jam. The worst pistol I ever shot was
factory Colt .45 ACP (not customized) -
jamed w/o mercy...People say that quality
control at Colt really sucks.
I shoot both wheel guns and semi's.All guns can and will jam.A semi on the average is easer to unjam in the field.The individual that made the statement about shooting the wheels guns barrel clear had better rethink his remark.Shooting any gun with a object in the barrel is asking for trouble.I think the secret is knowing your guns and ammo.Drill your stoppage problems till it becomes second nature to you.If you do things automaticly such as stoppage clearence you will have less problems.JMO
Bob
In 5000 rds my sig has jammed twice and both times due to reloads.(burr on rim)P220
Bob
In 5000 rds my sig has jammed twice and both times due to reloads.(burr on rim)P220
I understand that a lot of people have had thier semi-autos be very reliable for them, shooting several thousand rounds without failure.
Is this type of reliability only common under "ideal" circumstances? Holding the weapon firmly with both hands pointing straight out with a clean gun at the range, for example. It seems that semi-auto's action is a lot more dependant on the conditions it is fired in (gravity, temperature, velocity, experience of the shooter, etc).
Would the semi-automatic pistol operate just as well if the shooter was in motion, say hanging out of the window of a speeding vehicle? (I do not suggest doing this, it is simply the best example I can think of of a shooter in motion). How about upside-down and in motion? How would the action be affected? What about compared to a revolver?
Sorry if these seem like silly questions.
[This message has been edited by lp (edited November 03, 1999).]
Is this type of reliability only common under "ideal" circumstances? Holding the weapon firmly with both hands pointing straight out with a clean gun at the range, for example. It seems that semi-auto's action is a lot more dependant on the conditions it is fired in (gravity, temperature, velocity, experience of the shooter, etc).
Would the semi-automatic pistol operate just as well if the shooter was in motion, say hanging out of the window of a speeding vehicle? (I do not suggest doing this, it is simply the best example I can think of of a shooter in motion). How about upside-down and in motion? How would the action be affected? What about compared to a revolver?
Sorry if these seem like silly questions.
[This message has been edited by lp (edited November 03, 1999).]
There is a huge difference between
reliability of self-loading firearms
in clean and/or dirty conditiions.
People, who claim, and indeed get high
levels of reliability for their semiauto
pistols, do not shoot
their firearms if these firearms are dirty,
as it is the case in real combat conditions. If they have done it, they would discover that term "jam" is closely connected with the term "dirty", and their statistics on reliability of many brand name pistols would not be so good.
reliability of self-loading firearms
in clean and/or dirty conditiions.
People, who claim, and indeed get high
levels of reliability for their semiauto
pistols, do not shoot
their firearms if these firearms are dirty,
as it is the case in real combat conditions. If they have done it, they would discover that term "jam" is closely connected with the term "dirty", and their statistics on reliability of many brand name pistols would not be so good.
I guess I've had about an equal number of problems with autos and revolvers, but my experience has been limited to range conditions. With both types of handguns, my major source of trouble has been a lack of quality control during the manufacturing process.
The auto problems were failures to feed, extract, or eject, largely due, I think, to rough surfaces or inadequate extractor tension. I especially remember a Colt's Combat Commander 9mm that wouldn't do anything at all with the cartridges in its magazine.
The revolver problems I encountered were mainly caused by faulty or misfitted parts: S&W Model 19 cylinder jam due to endshake (after 15 rounds fired in a new gun), Model 48 failure to extract due to rough chambers, Model 57 extractor pin drifting out and jamming the cylinder, Model 629 locking bolt rotating out of alignment due to a loose barrel, etc. Once I had a revolver jam due to a minimal accumulation of fouling under the extractor (it was my fault: the area should have been oil-free but was not).
The auto problems were failures to feed, extract, or eject, largely due, I think, to rough surfaces or inadequate extractor tension. I especially remember a Colt's Combat Commander 9mm that wouldn't do anything at all with the cartridges in its magazine.
The revolver problems I encountered were mainly caused by faulty or misfitted parts: S&W Model 19 cylinder jam due to endshake (after 15 rounds fired in a new gun), Model 48 failure to extract due to rough chambers, Model 57 extractor pin drifting out and jamming the cylinder, Model 629 locking bolt rotating out of alignment due to a loose barrel, etc. Once I had a revolver jam due to a minimal accumulation of fouling under the extractor (it was my fault: the area should have been oil-free but was not).
BrokenArrow
New member
This is not as cut and dried as it seems.
We had more reliability problems w the M15 revolvers in the USAF than we did the M1911A1, M9, or M11.
Not unusual to fire thousands of rounds without cleaning in an auto without a problem. Revolvers will choke way before that.
I think the ammo and manufacturing stds are much better, and that's why the autos are so much more reliable than the M1911A1 or BHP were in the past (they are better now too so don't get ballistic on me
).
Revolvers seem to take neglect better, autos abuse better.
In the original M9 military trials, the revolver (it and M1911A1 used as references)was the only gun to pass the mud test! How is that for strange?
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We had more reliability problems w the M15 revolvers in the USAF than we did the M1911A1, M9, or M11.
Not unusual to fire thousands of rounds without cleaning in an auto without a problem. Revolvers will choke way before that.
I think the ammo and manufacturing stds are much better, and that's why the autos are so much more reliable than the M1911A1 or BHP were in the past (they are better now too so don't get ballistic on me
).Revolvers seem to take neglect better, autos abuse better.
In the original M9 military trials, the revolver (it and M1911A1 used as references)was the only gun to pass the mud test! How is that for strange?
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