Redhawk: first time it's let me down. Thoughts?

P

Pond James Pond

New member
I'll first say that I believe this is down to granules of unburnt powder, but I'll give you the circumstances and see if you can add any further thoughts.

It was my first match of the year and with most of my .44Spl cases still loaded for a charge weight ladder with LSWCs, I had not been able to load up .44Spl as normal, so I had to opt for full mags. I used up the last of my N110 and then my N350 for them.

During the first Stage I had a bunch of FTF, or so I thought. It turned out that my DA was not working. I had to ditch that stage prematurely. In the Safety Area I saw I could pull the trigger and the pin would come out of its recess, but the hammer was motionless! SA worked fine.

I took the grips off started to perform a strip, but tried the trigger I noticed that DA was now fine! I returned to the match. It was not my best. I also had problems with unburnt powder during reloads: it fell in the crane gap and made for difficulties in closing the cylinder.

Anyway, at home I did a detail strip of the gun and found unburnt powder inside the entire gun, all the way down to the trigger-works.

My conclusion was that some powder had some how stopped the trigger from acting the hammer in DA, but if the spring compression came from cocking the gun in SA, then it was OK...

Since then it has been cleaned out as best as I can and DA seems fine, as well as SA. The only thing I've noticed is that in DA, the turn of the cylinder is harder with 3 consecutive chambers. I've inspected the ejector star and no signs of obstructions. The cylinder spins very freely when swung out so it's not the axle there.

It also seems to have loosened up somewhat since then, but still I'd like to know the cause.

So if any of you have ideas I'd like to know if you can:
a) imagine a situation in a RH where powder or other debris could disconnect the trigger from the hammer in DA and,
b) think of what might cause stiffness in turning the cylinder in DA on the same 3 chambers, but is not due to a clogged up ejector star or cylinder rotation on its axis.

I have more comps next week and I hope to use the RH again. I also really hope to have load my LSWCs by then...
 
I cannot help with the guts and the DA internal problems, but take a long hard look at cylinder face/forward end of cylinder where it meets the rear of the barrel for the issues that are affecting the same three chambers on cylinder rotation.

I am currently having exactly this problem with a GP-100.
 
Sounds like:
Work done to the gun that wasn't done very well?
Lack of cleaning properly.
Handloads that are not suitable for using this gun without cleaning.

If any of those are true, the Redhawk isn't at fault one bit. Use cleaner burning powder for loading, disassemble the gun more often and clean it. It's all about prevention, not reaction. If you've replaced springs or done trigger work it wasn't done for complete reliability. When I shot competition a lot I saw more matches lost due to these problems than just shooing poorly. I once saw the factory team from Colt show up and their guns weren't working well. One guy was beating his on the table and when they got to the shotgun portion of the three gun match his shotgun kept jamming due to poor reloads. A six hundred dollar entry fee and one guy on the team showed up with reloads! Old saying: Better ready and not go than to go and not be ready. Good luck on your next match.
 
In 26 years of firing revolvers and, later, semi-autos in bi-annual le qualification drills, the only "malfunction" I ever incurred was with a Smith & Wesson Model 13 revolver. The da pull became harder and harder to make and finally it became impossible to turn the cylinder with the pull of the trigger.
The range officer knew what to look for and, sure enough, a very minute quantity of powder flakes that had gotten under the extractor was enough to tie up the gun. The Model 13 has a blued finish, making it difficult to spot any offending powder flakes.
I'm not saying that your Redhawk "let you down" for that reason but no need to blame the gun for having close enough tolerances to be susceptible to errant flakes of powder-at least, that's how I see it.
 
I bet you'll figure this out and all will be well once again. In the mean time, all of this is (yet another) fine and pure example of the "revolver is always dead reliable" mantra that is so often pushed and sold and refuses to die.

I love revolvers, and yes, they don't typically miss a beat where some semiautos can struggle. But unlike a pistol, when a revolver stops, it's often quite difficult or nearly impossible in the moment to make it run once again.

"Six for sure", heh. Maybe.
 
I've run into more issues like this with revolvers failing to work than semi's. I think that 60-70 years ago revolvers were probably more dependable, but no more.
 
Anyway, at home I did a detail strip of the gun and found unburnt powder inside the entire gun, all the way down to the trigger-works.
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This is not normal. You might get a stray flake or two, but not inside the entire gun. Trying to grind a revolver vs. semi axe based on this is pointless; what you have here is an ammo / maintenance problem that could stop either.
 
For those leaping to the defence of my Redhawk, please note that in the first sentence of the OP I did venture that this was a powder issue rather than the gun... I reached that conclusion at the range

Maintenance: I clean the barrel, cylinders and all exterior surfaces after every range trip. I don't typically detail strip it.

Probable Causes: I am sure that the DA issue at the range was powder contamination of the internals. I think I know how it got in there. If my reloads (I'd bet money it was the N350) had unburnt powder then it could have got in at my first reload: I open the cylinder tip the gun almost to the vertical (as per requests by ROs) over a belt pouch to catch the cases, then down vertically to load the speed-loader. On occasion one case may still be dangling from the chamber mouth and if powder had remained, it may have tipped in down into the crane and frame. The first shot's pressure wave may have forced some inside. There were about 10-15 granules inside the internals. As I think back to what happened and when that is what I think caused the problems. How they resulted in the DA failure, I don't know.

The cylinder turn issue seems more confusing as there is a clearly visible, consistent gap both at the forcing cone and breech face, so its not that. My guess is again a residual powder grain and I hope to have a look inside to day.

What I've learnt is that I need to revise my reload technique to avoid this happening again and to ensuring all cases leave the gun as this costs seconds to manually remove a straggler.

Fortunately, there is not part of my Redhawk that is softer than a granule of N350 so I'm happy that the gun is likely unaffected provided I get it all cleaned out. I may need to buy a can of brake-cleaner to blast it clean and re-lube from scratch.
 
Throw a can of some sort of spray solvent and a can of compressed air in your range bag and you'll have the solution to future problems.

Many revolver malfunctions come from debris that is easily removed with a high pressure spray.
 
I've just taken it apart and given all the corners a clean and scrape with a "dentist's pick" along with a few ml of lube and it is now far smoother and back to normal!

Mission now: improve reload technique to ensure all cases are ejected and ROs are appeased, and i.d. all of my reload recipes to eliminate any and all that could result in unburnt powder.
 
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The trigger mechanism on the redhawk has a couple of small springs and plungers. If the Trigger plunger has a rough spot or some powder has gotten in there then a DA pull may rotate the cylinder but NOT cock the hammer.

rotation without cocking the hammer" syndrome is because the trigger is not fully resetting. This is common if the trigger spring has been replaced with a reduced power spring or if the trigger plunger has rough spot.

DID the cylinder rotate indicating the pawl plunger and spring working, but the trigger reset not happening because of an issue with the trigger reset spring and plunger?
 
DID the cylinder rotate indicating the pawl plunger and spring working, but the trigger reset not happening because of an issue with the trigger reset spring and plunger?
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Honestly, I don't know. I was flying blind at the time, not knowing what was going on nor what to look for and thinking about the match I was about to have to ditch as much as I was about the gun.

However, what I remember is that the trigger felt very light and I only saw the pin moving into sight when I pulled the trigger but not the hammer. I can't say whether or not the cylinder was turn for sure, but if must have done, because I can't imagine myself not noticing such a fundamental of wheel-guns as the wheel, not turning!!

So it may be that I was able, by chance, simulate this "non-cocking rotation" syndrome with some granules in the works!
 
Sorry to hear of your troubles, James, but it seems they are of your own making. Clearly you need to find a cleaner burning powder for your light .44 Special loads. Something on the fast end of the scale would probably be best.

I know the restrictions you have getting things that are easily available to most of us, but whatever powder you can get that is close to Bullseye or Win 231 would give enough power and most likely burn cleaner.

Definitely sounds like a crud problem, not a "gun broken" problem.

I am, however, concerned about you having this,
I open the cylinder tip the gun almost to the vertical (as per requests by ROs) over a belt pouch to catch the cases, then down vertically to load the speed-loader. On occasion one case may still be dangling from the chamber mouth ..
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You are shooting .44 Special brass in a .44 Mag revolver, right? a FULL LENGTH STROKE of the ejector rod SHOULD push the shorter special brass completely clear of the cylinder.

I see three possibilities,
#1) your ejector rod is too short. THIS would be a repair issue.
#2) something (crud) is stopping a full length stroke. This is a maint. issue.
#3) your technique needs work. This is a training issue, and is the most likely, as I see it. Its nearly always the little things, things that until you make them "automatic" can be affected by one's focus on other things during a match.

Things like making sure the cylinder is swung fully open so empties don't catch and hang up on the frame or grips. Making sure the ejector rod stroke is full length, every time, and done smoothly. Little things, mostly.

Muzzle UP to empty, down to reload is the best practice.

Get/make some cleaner burning ammo, and pay attention to the little thing and at least some of your issues should clear up.

Good Luck!
 
Definitely sounds like a crud problem, not a "gun broken" problem.
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Indeed. In fact I have resisted the urge to strip the gun down more often as a few posters on revolver cleaning had once said that if it runs don't over clean as you invite problems if you fiddle with the clock work, so I've mostly just squirted lube down the hammer channel and left it at that. There seems to have been a fair bit of old "Dri-lube" an that is what I scooped out today. I still plan to do a blast-clean with brake-cleaner though. Start from a clean slate, so to speak.

#3) your technique needs work. This is a training issue, and is the most likely, as I see it. Its nearly always the little things, things that until you make them "automatic" can be affected by one's focus on other things during a match.

Things like making sure the cylinder is swung fully open so empties don't catch and hang up on the frame or grips. Making sure the ejector rod stroke is full length, every time, and done smoothly. Little things, mostly.
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It's #3. My technique is not great, but then the cases do just fall out. A shove of the rod seems in order to help them along. I should point out that these were full mag cases, though. Indeed, it does seem to be the case closest to the frame that gets stuck.

There hasn't been a powder issue with my .44Spls. They run N320 and it seems fast enough. My N350 is a mid-range charge, half-full case, and has given me unburnt granules at lighter charges. Perhaps the low ambient temps make it drop blow the clean burn threshold...
 
I like starting fluid much better than brake cleaner. Much lower toxicity, gentler to your hands, evaporates quickly, but must be used outdoors and away from ignition sources, as it is extremely flammable. You can get non-flamable brake cleaner, but it's nasty stuff. I have heard of it wrecking some plastics, too.
 
I like starting fluid much better than brake cleaner. Much lower toxicity, gentler to your hands, evaporates quickly, but must be used outdoors and away from ignition sources, as it is extremely flammable. You can get non-flamable brake cleaner, but it's nasty stuff. I have heard of it wrecking some plastics, too.
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Luckily, the only plastic on my RH is the clear housing of the FO front sight and I won't be spaying the frame. That is all fine.

What do you understanding by starter fluid?

Do you mean the stuff you spray into air intakes of Ural sidecar outfits on very cold mornings because your knee is about to explode from the kickstart pushing back for the 20th time?
 
Do you mean the stuff you spray into air intakes of Ural sidecar outfits on very cold mornings because your knee is about to explode from the kickstart pushing back for the 20th time?
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No, it's the stuff you spray on Mopeds that start on the first try. :)
 
I don't know what they use in other countries, but here in the USA, starting fluid is basically a non-medical grade of petoleum ether, which I believe is essential the same thing as what was used for generations as a general anaesthetic for surgery, but packed in aerosol cans to spray into the air-intake of internal combustion engines for otherwise difficult, cold weather, start-up. It works great for cleaning up the carburetors on my chainsaws and spraying out the powder residues from firearms components. It costs about half as much as brake-cleaner, where I get it. It's readily available year-round. Hints from Pathfinder..........:)
 
Last night I stripped it all down again, including the whole trigger mech'. Spray, brass-brush and pick followed by a healthy lubing.

The only thing I didn't strip was the cylinder assembly but I sprayed that too and re-lubed. The wheel now spins for a full 10 seconds before coming to a stop and the trigger pull is smooth throughout.
 
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