Redding Dies

A reloader/shooter just west of Ft. Worth was interested in case forming cases for his model 99 Japanese rifle. He received more responses that claimed 'it could not be done' or 'should not be done' so I contacted him off line.

I formed 80 cases. I saved a few for the purpose of having a way to measure the cases just in case I made a mistake.

I formed 20 cases that I labeled, full length sized, I formed 20cases I labeled go-gage length, I formed 20 cases I labeled field reject length and then shipped the cases. By the time he got back to me we were at the Market Hall gun show. the full length/minimum length cases required nothing meaning he loaded the cases and then fired them. The go-gage length cases did not require anything but loading, The no go-gage length cases required sizing, the same for the field reject length cases plus trimming.

By that time he had fired most of the cases 3 times.

I formed the cases from 30/06 cases, I used a 308 W forming die to shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head and; no, the shoulder did not move back in the forming process. After forming I used an old Herter sizing die.

He did not know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face; that is the reason I sent him cases that matched the length of gages as in go, no, beyond and way out there. We decided his chamber was go-gage length.

And? I never noticed if the die was pretty, or felt good to the touch or shined; I do know the 308 Forming die was a very good investment.

F. Guffey
 
...I never noticed if the die was pretty or felt good...
Click to expand...
Good for you son, I’m glad they worked well for you. And I do get the ‘function over form’ thing. That said, some folks pay more attention to details, some are more tactile, and some folks take pride in their tools. Some folks use Black and Decker cordless drills, some prefer Bosch drills. You can defend yourself just fine with either a Hi-Point 9mm carbine or an AR-15 9mm carbine, they both work well. To each his own.



.
 
Good for you son, I’m glad they worked well for you. And I do get the ‘function over form’ thing. That said, some folks pay more attention to details, some are more tactile, and some folks take pride in their tools. Some folks use Black and Decker cordless drills, some prefer Bosch drills.
Click to expand...

TX Nimrod, thank you. And then there are those that purchase the finest of tools without knowing how the tool functions; many reloaders insit the shell holder brand must match the die brand. I verify the die, I verify the shell holder; It is written on the bottom of the counter display box for C&H dies from the mid 60; that goes back to the time they were in El Monte, California.

It is on the bottom of the box: Use these dies with a shell holder that has a height of .125". It is not written: We recommend you match these C&H dies with a C&H shell holder or we recommend you uses these dies with out shell holder.

F. Guffey
 
RC20-Wasn't trying to imply they didn't work, but as usual am not explaining enough. The RCBS is more convenient to place the bullet in the die. However the main benefit i get from the comp dies are seating bullets without noticeable wobble. In highly unscientific testing with the one caliber (6.5x55) that i bought the RCBS comp seater, it did not seat the bullets tried as concentric as the Redding die bought afterward. Granted this test did not include multiple calibers, types of brass, bullets, sd or es. And the test for concentricticity (made up word?) involved rolling the round on piece of flat surfaced marble. There was noticeable wobble with the bullets seated with the RCBS, followed by the noticeably better Foerster, which was closely followed by the Redding (no discernible wobble).
Click to expand...

That is fair, NO way we can do all tests, works for me as a considered take.
 
The pointy end of the bullet comes out of the thingy where the hole is. Right Jaguar? Lol
I've seen my wife out shoot guys to 600 yards with her Rossi R243 that i got used for $150.
The guys had close to $6K in each of their rifles.
So, yeah.
Click to expand...

C-mon now , I think we all know that's the exception and not the rule . I used to out shoot guys with my Ruger American ( first gen ) and $35 Tasco scope . That was more about me and them then the equipment we were using .

Lee makes a fine die but they're not the same as Redding or Forster . Don't get me wrong I get your general point . apples to apples best vs best and standard vs standard there's likely not a whole lot of difference between Redding , RCBS , Forster etc .
 
Been using Redding dies for eons. They're the same as RCBS dies but without the warrantee. Wouldn't buy 'em just because the box says Redding on it though.
The term "competition dies" is marketing.
 
I reloaded many years with RCBS Dies , gave the Redding STypebushing dies a try , didn't work out for me but the quality of the Redding dies are top shelf . Can't go wrong with Redding or RCBS .
 
Yes , they are worth the extra money .
My first choice are CH4D dies but next up are Redding .
Redding scales and presses are also top drawer. I've been reloading for 51 years and have dies from just about every maker , past and present .
Gary
 
Some folks do try to buy their way to superior marksmanship via the equipment, and with some of the new high-tech range-finding and wind-correcting optics, they are probably getting closer to being able to do that. One time I provided a match-tuned Garand and a box of GMM 168 grain ammo to a beginning High Power shooter for a match to prove a point. He was shooting in the low-60's and it got him up into the low-70's. Previously, he was convinced his stock Garand with ball ammo shot better than he did and that meant there was no point in getting better gear and ammo. My demonstration to him was to prove it wasn't so. The one doesn't simply mask the other completely. But the fact my match Garand could shoot that load into 0.7" CTC (0.67 moa) from prone also didn't mean he could shoot Master Class with it. There's always an interaction between the gun and the shooter.

There's a formula for figuring out its magnitude. It is the same formula used to add standard deviations. If the shooter, using a bughole rifle, has a dispersion with a radial standard deviation of 4 moa and his stock gun from a machine rest has a dispersion with a radial standard deviation of 3 moa, then the shooter will shoot groups that have:

√(4²+3²)=5 moa radial standard deviation, or, for 10-shot groups, a 15.7-inch average group diameter at 100 yards.

By lending him my 0.67 moa gun and ammo combination, his new group Radial SD becomes:

√(4²+0.67²)=4.06 moa or about 12.2" 10-shot group diameter.

Using radial SD and that square root of the sum of the squares addition, you can see the true probable effects of having a better piece of equipment. It helps, but it clearly doesn't mean you can give up on trigger time and dry firing if you want to win matches.

Zeke,

Your results match mine, though I used 30-06. The Redding Comp Seater simply took most of the runout away. There is a copy of German Salazar's test online at Uniqetek's site. Of the seating dies he tested, Salazar found the Redding Comp Die was the only one that could actually correct uneven neck runout slightly. His group with rounds seated by it is smaller than the others in his test.

I've never had one of the Forsters, but I've read what the difference is. Forster had the license to the patent on the full-length sliding case alignment sleeve that was in force between 1969 and 1989. When it expired in 1989, that same year Redding filed their patent on combining that full-length sliding case alignment sleeve with an air-bearing floating seating ram (a.k.a. stem, plug). The patent explains why it can improve on the Forster's fixed stem. That patent expired in 2009, and now at least one other company I've seen has taken up making a die with the same features (can't find the reference right now). It really does work better than anything else I am aware of, including the Wilson arbor press dies designed for benchrest competition shooting.

John Feamster's section of the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide included a test he did on the RCBS match seating die against the RCBS standard seating die. The latter actually made more concentric cartridges. Apparently, that long, skinny threaded seating stem adjustment rod in the standard RCBS dies flexes enough to help mimic floating. The match die's feeding port is a neat feature, but without floating or aligning the case and bullet, it needs help to turn out really straight ammo. Here's how it's done:

Use a Lyman M-Die to partially expand the case mouth before charging and seating the bullet. This die puts a short step in the case mouth that allows you to set a bullet upright in it so it enters the seating die straight up and down. This greatly reduces bullet tilt. The M-Die is also an expander for cast bullets, so it will also flare the top of the case mouth if you set it to expand deeply enough, but you only need the short step for jacketed bullets. As long as it doesn't have to correct bullet tipping, any conventional seating die will tend to seat very well. It may not go that last little bit that the Redding does in correcting for neck wall runout, but everything comes very close, indeed. It is an extra step in the reloading process, but for most it is worth a try before going to the expense of getting the Redding Comp Seater.
 
That math hurt my head.

As most of what I can get is boat tailed and I do have the Tri Trimmer, how does that equate to the Lyman M die need to get a bullet startled straight ?
 
need to get a bullet startled straight ?
Click to expand...


I don't think you ever want your bullet startled . Every time I startle my bullets they jump right out of the case mouth before I can seat them . They can be a little skittish you know .:D

I crack me up ;)
 
^^^
Good one MetalGod!

Don't get me wrong. It's not that i have any prejudice against any of the die manufacturers.
I have/use Lee, RCBS, Redding, Hornady, and old Pacific dies.
They all do the job. I really haven't found one to be easier, or that much noticably better than any other, with a couple of caveats.
I don't use Lee dies for forming.
Why does the adjustment screw, noticably RCBS, need to be a foot long? (I usually end up trimming these off).
 
I don't think you ever want your bullet startled . Every time I startle my bullets they jump right out of the case mouth before I can seat them . They can be a little skittish you know .

I crack me up
Click to expand...

You crack me up to, good one.
 
Why does the adjustment screw, noticably RCBS, need to be a foot long? (I usually end up trimming these off).
Click to expand...

Going off topic a bit, but my Tumbler is the same way, 6 inches of all thread above the lid. I finally cut it off to close to flush.

Its not like you are going to double lid them or anything.
 
Unclenick lost me right around " there's a formula for figuring.... " I am the worst math person in creation...If I don't have a calculator ... I have to count on my fingers...
But I always enjoy reading what Unclenick has to say....I might not understand it but one day the light bulb might go on and I'll get it !

I do know why adjustment screws are made long....you can easily shorten a long screw but making a short one longer is a whole different thing !
Gary
 
Gwpercle,

The math just shows you can calculate how much a match gun and ammo will improve group size for a shooter who doesn't hold well. Mostly, we do not have a reason to make that calculation. I just put it up for people interested in that sort of thing and to show there is a theoretical basis for what you see on paper. Mostly, though, we do what I did with that novice Highpower shooter and let them try it out to see for themselves.


RC20,

Most seating dies won't straighten a bullet perfectly during seating. If it is at all tipped to the side as it slides up into the conventional die, it tends to retain a small fraction of that tilt. Even with boattail bullets and a good chamfer, I've had conventional seating dies leave me with 0.008" of total indicated runout (TIR). Only the Redding Competition Seater Die completely corrects it, IME. A.A. Abbatiello confirmed by testing that 0.008" of total indicated runout (0.004" of tip-tilt off-axis) added one moa of dispersion with the old 173 grain National Match bullet. (The effect varies with how far the bullet's center of gravity is from the center of its cylindrical bearing surface.)

When you use the Lyman M Die, it puts a short, straight step in the case mouth the bottom end of the bullet bearing surface slips into. That holds the bullet straight upright as it enters your seating die. It removes the lion's share of the tilt that isn't straightened out completely by conventional seating dies. Getting the lion's share of tilt out asks the die to do only a last little bit of straightening, which most come pretty close to getting done. I have had good results from the RCBS standard seating die and the Lee Dead Length Seating Die when I use the Lyman M Die first. (That the Wilson arbor press seating die would also work comes from someone else's testing.)

The Forster Benchrest Seater Die comes close to matching the Redding Competition Seater Die for tilt removal. Both use a sliding sleeve around the case body that eliminates the influence of any misalignment between the center of the seating stem and the center of the shell holder. The Redding goes on to additionally guide the bullet bearing surface to a floating seating stem that centers on a small knob at the end of the micrometer that lets the bullet guide and ram assembly tilt a little to get the last little bit of centering done. It is also the weak point on the die that can't hold up to seating compressed charges, as Redding warns, but for non-compressed loads or loads just barely compressed, it works extremely well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top