Most shotgun powders also can do double duty for a wide selection of handgun cartridges. I have tried Unique, Universal, BE, 231, and on and on from 32SWL to 45. I do not notice much difference in accuracy from MY guns when using any of the above powders, so I tend to stick with A) What I can get at a good price and B) what covers the vast majority of my needs. Right NOW, that is Universal. However TiteWAD, (NOT Group), shows some promise in handguns from what I have been reading and I use that a LOT for reduced payload 12 gauge target loads.
RED DOT
- Thread starter Gregory Gauvin
- Start date
I stand corrected. I bought an 8 lb jug of Promo. Its gone using it in pistol cartridges and cast bullet rifle cartridges.
I will repeat. Promo is the same by weight as Red Dot, not volume.
Accuracy wise, in a handgun, its great for me. It does not meter as well as WW231 or Bullseye.
I get all the velocity I need.
If you look up "The Load" for cast bullets, you will find it works in most any rifle cartridge with cast bullets. I burned a lot of it in 7.65 Argentine, 308, and 30-06 in a 1917 Enfield. 12 or 13 grains at a time.
David
I will repeat. Promo is the same by weight as Red Dot, not volume.
Accuracy wise, in a handgun, its great for me. It does not meter as well as WW231 or Bullseye.
I get all the velocity I need.
If you look up "The Load" for cast bullets, you will find it works in most any rifle cartridge with cast bullets. I burned a lot of it in 7.65 Argentine, 308, and 30-06 in a 1917 Enfield. 12 or 13 grains at a time.
David
Salmoneye said:
Actually, it was only for 125's. They still list Blue Dot loads for 110 grain bullets. So the issue remains a bit mysterious.
If you are on Alliant's site, their Reloader's Guide data lists their preferred loads for each cartridge. But if you look up a particular powder there is a link to all loads made with that powder, sometimes that link will include loads that don't come up in the main guide listings and is worth a cross-check.
Continuing the W231 off-subject tangent
It is hard to find; due to its popularity, no doubt. It's amusing that HP-38 tends to sell slower than W231 - just a side observation. Cabela's has 1# available right now. And they have had 8#'s available for the longest time (where I got my 8#er). The 8#'s are on backorder now; but they had it available for many months. Brick n mortar stores may be tougher. But I have seen them (W231 & HP-38) available a time or two since the '13 panic.
I have no doubt. I currently have the bases covered too - with AA#2 and TiteGroup. But I won't be buying any more of either. Same with Bullseye, except I have exhausted my supply of B'eye.
I heard the same thing (on Hodgdon's website), so I put the theory to test . . .
38 Special. Smith Model 67; 4" bbl. Missouri Bullet Co soft cast "PPC#2"(BNH-10) 148gn DEWC. 2.8gn TiteGroup. I shot six (6) 10-round groups; alternating between tilting the gun back (shifting the powder against the primer) prior to shooting each round, and not. Here's the results:
1, no tilt: 700 f/s; 15.81 SD
2, tilt: 726 f/s; 10.19 SD
3, no tilt: 700 f/s; 24.22 SD
4, tilt: 722 f/s; 13.37 SD
5, no tilt: 706 f/s; 25.23 SD
6, tilt: 725 f/s ; 11.13 SD
(edit: Standard Deviation data added)
That's the data. Digest it as you will. Position made a difference of some 21 f/s. So yes, there was a difference. A significant difference? Eh. I've never conducted such a test with other propellants; so there's no comparative baseline. I post this not to dispute the claim; but just for the sake of sharing actual "real world" data. Albeit, probably not all that scientific.
It is hard to find; due to its popularity, no doubt. It's amusing that HP-38 tends to sell slower than W231 - just a side observation. Cabela's has 1# available right now. And they have had 8#'s available for the longest time (where I got my 8#er). The 8#'s are on backorder now; but they had it available for many months. Brick n mortar stores may be tougher. But I have seen them (W231 & HP-38) available a time or two since the '13 panic.
I have no doubt. I currently have the bases covered too - with AA#2 and TiteGroup. But I won't be buying any more of either. Same with Bullseye, except I have exhausted my supply of B'eye.
I heard the same thing (on Hodgdon's website), so I put the theory to test . . .
38 Special. Smith Model 67; 4" bbl. Missouri Bullet Co soft cast "PPC#2"(BNH-10) 148gn DEWC. 2.8gn TiteGroup. I shot six (6) 10-round groups; alternating between tilting the gun back (shifting the powder against the primer) prior to shooting each round, and not. Here's the results:
1, no tilt: 700 f/s; 15.81 SD
2, tilt: 726 f/s; 10.19 SD
3, no tilt: 700 f/s; 24.22 SD
4, tilt: 722 f/s; 13.37 SD
5, no tilt: 706 f/s; 25.23 SD
6, tilt: 725 f/s ; 11.13 SD
(edit: Standard Deviation data added)
That's the data. Digest it as you will. Position made a difference of some 21 f/s. So yes, there was a difference. A significant difference? Eh. I've never conducted such a test with other propellants; so there's no comparative baseline. I post this not to dispute the claim; but just for the sake of sharing actual "real world" data. Albeit, probably not all that scientific.
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Cool info! But not exactly what I'm talking about. Making loads in .45 Colt with light-for-caliber bullets is a really good test. Try 200gr slugs in that large case that runs a low peak pressure. You end up with a small charge, a huge expanse for it to burn and shot to shot performance is wildly erratic.
This scenario is what Trail Boss tries to handle... fast burning but extremely bulky to eat up all that space and still make a light, low-pressure load.
W231 could make some fine .45 Colt loads I bet, Bullseye could also, but Titegroup runs more consistently than pretty much anything in these instances.
This scenario is what Trail Boss tries to handle... fast burning but extremely bulky to eat up all that space and still make a light, low-pressure load.
W231 could make some fine .45 Colt loads I bet, Bullseye could also, but Titegroup runs more consistently than pretty much anything in these instances.
I like Red Dot. on the trap and skeet field it's hard to beat. A 12 Gage with 1 Oz. of shot makes a fine load for Rabbit and Pat. My pistols like it so I don't see any thing wrong with having some around. After all it got me through the previous loading rations. That reminds me that it's time to get some more.
bluetopper
New member
Red Dot is as good a fast burning handgun powder as there is. The large flakes of Alliant brands Red and Green Dot, Unique, and American Select are nothing but a plus for me. They take up more space in the case.
Plus the current manufacture of Red Dot smells like peppermint.
Plus the current manufacture of Red Dot smells like peppermint.
My go-to fast handgun powders are Promo and Titegroup.
I used Red Dot as a teenager in the 1970s for 38's and was happy.
I had several long (years) breaks in active shooting. Been more regular in the last 15. About ten years ago, I did an 8 lb order of Promo from Powder Valley at a really good $/lb price.
I have burned about half of the 8 lbs in handguns (mostly 38s & 357s). At 3 to 6 grs per charge, probably ~ 6k rounds.
The biggest downside for me was that it does not meter as good as some. Especially if you are at the low end of what your measure throws.
With a high fraction of my loads moving toward very low powder density and the low end of what my measure throws, I went for a jug of TiteGroup last year.
TiteGroup is advertized with "powder position in large cases (45 Colt, 357 Magnum and others) has virtually no effect on velocity and performance".
Recent testing on my part with a 327 found that "no effect" really means only a 25% to 50% increase in speed for powder at the back (see the 327 Fed Club thread). The other potential issue for TiteGroup is that it has about the smallest charge volume around. Visual detection of double charges is potentially less effective. I still love the powder, but was disappointed with my first powder position test result.
Back to promo / Red dot. It is less dense than many and ignites real easy. As such I found that it did pretty good in low powder density applications. My subjective assessment would be that it performs about as good as Titegroup for low powder density applications. I need to do some side by side chrono testing.
Red dot also is real good when it comes to load data and load experience reports. Probably one of the 5 best in this regard.
For any handgun load that can use a fast powder, both Red dot / Promo and Titegroup can get the job done with an economical small charge. Actual $/pound is also good for both.
For me, any load with a charge above around 3.0 grs would be expected to work just as well either Red dot/Promo (an old school flake shotgun powder) or Titegoup (a fancy new pistol powder).
I used Red Dot as a teenager in the 1970s for 38's and was happy.
I had several long (years) breaks in active shooting. Been more regular in the last 15. About ten years ago, I did an 8 lb order of Promo from Powder Valley at a really good $/lb price.
I have burned about half of the 8 lbs in handguns (mostly 38s & 357s). At 3 to 6 grs per charge, probably ~ 6k rounds.
The biggest downside for me was that it does not meter as good as some. Especially if you are at the low end of what your measure throws.
With a high fraction of my loads moving toward very low powder density and the low end of what my measure throws, I went for a jug of TiteGroup last year.
TiteGroup is advertized with "powder position in large cases (45 Colt, 357 Magnum and others) has virtually no effect on velocity and performance".
Recent testing on my part with a 327 found that "no effect" really means only a 25% to 50% increase in speed for powder at the back (see the 327 Fed Club thread). The other potential issue for TiteGroup is that it has about the smallest charge volume around. Visual detection of double charges is potentially less effective. I still love the powder, but was disappointed with my first powder position test result.
Back to promo / Red dot. It is less dense than many and ignites real easy. As such I found that it did pretty good in low powder density applications. My subjective assessment would be that it performs about as good as Titegroup for low powder density applications. I need to do some side by side chrono testing.
Red dot also is real good when it comes to load data and load experience reports. Probably one of the 5 best in this regard.
For any handgun load that can use a fast powder, both Red dot / Promo and Titegroup can get the job done with an economical small charge. Actual $/pound is also good for both.
For me, any load with a charge above around 3.0 grs would be expected to work just as well either Red dot/Promo (an old school flake shotgun powder) or Titegoup (a fancy new pistol powder).
bluetopper
New member
Many reloaders don't seem to know that Red Dot powder has been a mainstay in handgun reloading since 1932. Data has been published for it in all manner of calibers for the better part of a century.
Gregory Gauvin
New member
If you could choose between Red Dot and Bullseye (for pistol loading) which one would you pick and why?
Red Dot.
RD is bulky. In cartridges such as 32 S&W, S&W Long, & 38 Spec. it makes doing a visual so much easier. The extra bulk also helps mitigate position sensitivity. It works well enough at lower pressures that you aren't giving up anything. It also makes for a good powder in 32 ACP and 380.
Just goofing around I found an excellent plinker load for my 44 Mag SRH using RD and 240 gr plated.
RD is bulky. In cartridges such as 32 S&W, S&W Long, & 38 Spec. it makes doing a visual so much easier. The extra bulk also helps mitigate position sensitivity. It works well enough at lower pressures that you aren't giving up anything. It also makes for a good powder in 32 ACP and 380.
Just goofing around I found an excellent plinker load for my 44 Mag SRH using RD and 240 gr plated.
Guess I'd stay with Bullseye....45 ACP with 185 grain or 200 grain semi-wadcutters for target shooting. Powder puff loads-just enough to cycle the action, very near the minimums listed in my reloading manuals.
Bullseye is pretty dirty but not much worse than Red Dot and I always thought my Bullseye loads were a tiny bit more accurate than the Red Dot ones.
If you want more power than mild target loads then I suppose there are better powders for those applications out there.
YMMV.
Good luck.
Average Joe
New member
I use Red Dot for 9mm, 38 spl, and mid range loads for .357. I also use for 12 ga shotshell loads. If I only could have one powder, Red Dot would be it.
Powder position sensitivity
Previoulsy I noted that it felt like Red Dot / Promo was about the same as TiteGroup as far as position sensitivity went.
Today I remembered having some data for some low recoil 110 gr Cast RN 38 SP's I had loaded for my wife to use in her LCRx. At least for this application, the fancy new powder that brags on powder position insensitivity (Tightgroup) is no better than my favorite old flake shotgun powder
Charge...Powder.....Vel.......................................Increase
2.5........T.G. ........550........Barrel Tipped Down
2.5........T.G. ........683........Barrel Tipped Up........24%
2.8........Promo......519........Barrel Tipped Down
2.8........Promo......636........Barrel Tipped Up........23%
Previoulsy I noted that it felt like Red Dot / Promo was about the same as TiteGroup as far as position sensitivity went.
Today I remembered having some data for some low recoil 110 gr Cast RN 38 SP's I had loaded for my wife to use in her LCRx. At least for this application, the fancy new powder that brags on powder position insensitivity (Tightgroup) is no better than my favorite old flake shotgun powder
Charge...Powder.....Vel.......................................Increase
2.5........T.G. ........550........Barrel Tipped Down
2.5........T.G. ........683........Barrel Tipped Up........24%
2.8........Promo......519........Barrel Tipped Down
2.8........Promo......636........Barrel Tipped Up........23%
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Mr. Flados,
Have you emailed your data to Hodgdon and asked why you do not appear to be getting the position insensitivity they claim for the powder? I would be interested to hear. They may come back saying it only applies to maximum loads or some such. I don't want to anticipate, but I would be curious to learn what they have to say about it. If you are not interested in doing that, I would like permission to borrow your data and do it for you.
Nick
Have you emailed your data to Hodgdon and asked why you do not appear to be getting the position insensitivity they claim for the powder? I would be interested to hear. They may come back saying it only applies to maximum loads or some such. I don't want to anticipate, but I would be curious to learn what they have to say about it. If you are not interested in doing that, I would like permission to borrow your data and do it for you.
Nick
I just chalk it up to marketing BS.
I bought the TiteGroup for several reasons.
I wanted something that would meter better with light charges. It does this very well.
I wanted a flexible & fast burning powder that would work for target level loads with low charge weights, yet still be able to launch mid range loads up to good velocities. It also does this very well.
I wanted a powder that minimized velocity variations based on pawder position. It is probably is better than some. Just not Red Dot.
Based on my recollection of 700x performance, all of the really fast flake powders are probably about the same.
If anyone wants to poke at Hodgdon based on my results, feel free. I posted more data over at the 327 club thread which I have copied below. The 327 data goes from low target level up to impressive velocities. Now my data is not lab quality, and all of it was with "light for caliber" bullets. Some were only a couple of shots averaged, some were more. Also the chrony gave a few really wierd reading I did not record and for the loads a higher speeds it missed a fair fraction. On the other hand, the trend is pretty clear.
327 Fed Mag, 4.2" Ruger SP101, 55 gr cast bullet, BLL lube for 3.1 & 3.7 gr, ASBB PC for 5.0 & 5.5 gr, regular pistol primer (S&B)
Charge.......Avg Vel
3.1............636............Barrel Tipped Down
3.1............926............Barrel Tipped Up..........46% more
3.7............745............Barrel Tipped Down
3.7............1164...........Barrel Tipped Up.........56% more
5.0............1040...........Barrel Tipped Down
5.0............1406...........Barrel Tipped Up.........35% more
5.5............1345...........Barrel Tipped Down
5.5............1543...........Barrel Tipped Up.........15% more
I bought the TiteGroup for several reasons.
I wanted something that would meter better with light charges. It does this very well.
I wanted a flexible & fast burning powder that would work for target level loads with low charge weights, yet still be able to launch mid range loads up to good velocities. It also does this very well.
I wanted a powder that minimized velocity variations based on pawder position. It is probably is better than some. Just not Red Dot.
Based on my recollection of 700x performance, all of the really fast flake powders are probably about the same.
If anyone wants to poke at Hodgdon based on my results, feel free. I posted more data over at the 327 club thread which I have copied below. The 327 data goes from low target level up to impressive velocities. Now my data is not lab quality, and all of it was with "light for caliber" bullets. Some were only a couple of shots averaged, some were more. Also the chrony gave a few really wierd reading I did not record and for the loads a higher speeds it missed a fair fraction. On the other hand, the trend is pretty clear.
327 Fed Mag, 4.2" Ruger SP101, 55 gr cast bullet, BLL lube for 3.1 & 3.7 gr, ASBB PC for 5.0 & 5.5 gr, regular pistol primer (S&B)
Charge.......Avg Vel
3.1............636............Barrel Tipped Down
3.1............926............Barrel Tipped Up..........46% more
3.7............745............Barrel Tipped Down
3.7............1164...........Barrel Tipped Up.........56% more
5.0............1040...........Barrel Tipped Down
5.0............1406...........Barrel Tipped Up.........35% more
5.5............1345...........Barrel Tipped Down
5.5............1543...........Barrel Tipped Up.........15% more
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