RED DOT

G

Gregory Gauvin

New member
CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD software based on a particular powder lot, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QuickLOAD's author nor its distributor assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.


I had a pound of Red Dot I wanted to burn out and it just seemed to take forever to get rid of it. I'm stocked up on IMR 4756 and HS-6, and planned to continue my loading with these powers and much of my preferred developments with the hodgdon. I didn't like Red Dot at first. Now, I'm wondering if it is something I should keep in my repertoire and go grab another LBS.

I like the fact that is it very economical. As far as calibers, in 45acp my pet load using HS-6 is a full power load (to get the powder to clean up) which runs great and is very accurate. But the Red Dot seems to make use of Target loads with cast bullets. I just think the felt recoil is weird with the fast powder. I recently developed loads in 9mm with both HS-6 and Red Dot. The Red Dot is economically practical for standard pressure target loads. The HS-6 is more accurate, and I have safety even worked up some +p loads.

Now, although I have developed a great load in 9x18 with HS-6, the powder is not ideal for this caliber (too slow). I think if I keep Red Dot in my inventory I will use it primarily for 9x18, possibly 9mm target loads, 32 acp.

But, I would like to verify what is going on here with my 9x18 load.

I am running a 95grain Berry plated. Mak Cases (mostly S&B and PPU). REM primer.

COAL = .980".

My manual is giving a 3.1grn charge MAX for a 100grn jacketed @ .965" (905ft/sec)

For a .380 auto, it lists 3.1grn MAX for a 95grn jacketed. 3.1 x 10% = 3.4grn.

I stopped my load development at 3.4grn Red Dot. I fired 3 factory PPU rounds (1017ft/sec) and 3 of my 3.4grn rounds. My rounds were slightly less than the factory in terms of felt recoil. (blow back gun). No pressure indicators, firearm not being abused with recoil. Actually, the load is pretty accurate but I thought I would be close to factory velocities. Has anyone loaded the 9x18 with Red Dot and would it be safe to resume my load data with charges of 3.6 grns and 3.8 grns?
 
I didn't like Red Dot at first. Now, I'm wondering if it is something I should keep in my repertoire and go grab another #?
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I guess that's the main question. One which only you can ultimately answer. I have used Red Dot, but it's been years; decades, actually. Primarily a shotgun propellant, mind you. I used it for a while, but gravitated to Bullseye at the time; then, W231 shortly thereafter. Red Dot is a touch slower than Bullseye. If I was in your situation, I would exhaust my supply of RD, and replace it with either W321/HP-38 or TiteGroup. But - that's just me.



Don't you have any revolvers? Just askin'.
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Heh, that's what I was thinking as I was reading the OP. Red Dot is an "old school" propellant used mostly by shotgun loaders and old duffers with 38 target guns. There is a small contingent of very loyal 38 target shooters who would use nothing else. But they're a dying breed. I'm an old duffer 38 target shooter myself. But the folks I'm talking about are generally beyond my 54 years. Red Dot is rarely thought of as a semi-auto propellant. Not for any distinct attribute/characteristic (that I know of); but because it's just old stuff and has never been marketed toward semi-auto loaders.
 
You touched on something in the back of my mind that I had not mentioned. I indeed was thinking about replacing Red Dot with Bullseye. Across the board, it appears Bullseye just seems to work in more applications and there is more data available for it. It also appears to be quite similar to Red Dot. I know it is not the same, and nitro% contents differ - some debate which powder is "faster" - nonetheless, charge weights between the two are generally very close.

I had no idea Red Dot was an olde school 38 load. Why was this powder chosen for such application when Bullseye had been around for so much longer?
 
Probably some of those guys owned shotguns and decided to see if they couldn't get double-duty out of one powder, and did.

All the powders mentioned are good. You could play with something still faster and cleaner, like Clays, but for versatility for normal level loads in all but magnum handgun chamberings, Bullseye and 231/HP38 are hard to beat. They may be used in the magnums, too, but for target and reduced loads rather than for what are considered normal loads in those chamberings.
 
I use Red Dot in everything from .38 S&W to .30-06, and a bunch in between...

Till a few years ago, ATK (Alliant parent company) hosted a PDF version of the 2004 Alliant paper manual on it's site, and stood by the old load data...

There were many handgun loads for all the 'Dot' powders, along with, Bullseye, Unique, Herco, 2400, etc...

ATK took the manual down shortly after the dire Blue Dot warning not to use Blue Dot in .357 with bullets lighter than 125gr, and no loading .41 Mag at all...I can't blame them...

The 2005 Alliant manual is available (free) in a few places online, as are some of the older Hercules manuals...

My suggestion is if the rounds loaded in the OP are cycling, and fairly accurate, nothing will be gained by adding more powder...

Stick to the 3.1gr Max, and have at it...At least that is what the 2004 manual states as max for a 100gr in 9x18...
 
Why was this powder chosen for such application when Bullseye had been around for so much longer?
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The talk I've heard (from the previously-mentioned old duffers) is that Red Dot, being just a touch slower, tends to "have a more settled bullet" before it leaves the barrel, and thus improving the accuracy by just a tick.

However . . .

those guys owned shotguns and decided to see if they couldn't get double-duty out of one powder, and did.
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. . . is more likely to be the real and practical reason.
 
Somewhere back in my mind I seem to recall reading somewhere that Red Dot and Bullseye are so close in burn rate that their relative positions can change depending on the cartridge. Since I have plenty of other powders, I haven't replenished the Red Dot, using Titegroup with nearly identical results. But I have nothing but praise for Ded Dot when used in 45 Colt for light target loads.
 
Interesting

I use red dot for a lot of cast bullet loads.

I get excellent performance in my 45 auto using max load listed in the Lyman manual. 200 grain cast, 920 fps in my 5" and 850 in my 3.5" officers model.

Same for my 38 special. 138 gr Button nose wadcutters and 158 gr SWC
loaded to max in the manual. Shoots great, great velocity.

I liked it so much I bought a 4 lb container of Promo which is the same powder by WEIGHT. The 4 lbs are gone.

Red dot has similar burning speed as Bullseye which is THE powder for a 45 ACP.

David
 
I used Red Dot and 700x for a while when I was a kid for target .45 ACP loads with 185 grain and 200 grain lead semi-wadcutters.

I liked Bullseye slightly better but my Dad was a trap shooter and let me have the Red Dot and 700x for nothing. He laughed at the amount I used for pistol shooting verses how much he used for trap shooting. (I did kind of pay him back by running his Mec 650 and loading up traps load for him. He messed around a lot but finally (kind of) settled on 12 gauge Winchester AA hulls with one ounce of used 7 1/2 shot and Red Dot for the powder.)
 
With my 4", and 5" barrel 1911's I usually use Unique, or Ramshot Silhouette.

When I load for my neighbor's XDS with the 3.2" barrel I use Red Dot to get enough velocity out of the short barrel, without the huge fireball at the end. Has worked well with 185gr. Sierra HP, and 200gr. LSWC.

I need to start using up some of my Blue Dot... I got a pound, wife bought me one for birthday, and friend bought me one for xmas. :D
 
If you love Red Dot and you use a ton of Red Dot and you pay money for Red Dot... you would save money by buying Promo. A poster above said he got Promo in a 4-lb'er, I believe he is mistaken... Promo only comes in the 8lb. container.

I am nearing the end of the Promo that I bought and I used more than 97% of the 7+ pounds of it for .45 Auto, 230gr Plated RN. That's over 10,000 rounds of .45 and it worked great and when it is gone, I won't buy more Promo and I have never bought or even used Red Dot and odds are that I never will.

Red Dot is fine, I prefer Bullseye and though I have also never had nor used W231, convential wisdom suggest that it is even BETTER than Red Dot, Promo or Bullseye in handgun ammo. I also have no plans to ever buy W231.
 
Gregory Gauvin

You won't see pressure signs until you are WAY overpressure since your cartridge is in the very low 20K psi class. If you flatten a Fed. 100 primer (probably the softest of the bunch) you will be at double charge. You are already above max. and probably well above max. pressure.

At this point....if you decide to go up do so in 0.1 gr. increments. At least this way your gun might be able to give you warning you are pushing it much too far.
 
you would save money by buying Promo. A poster above said he got Promo in a 4-lb'er, I believe he is mistaken... Promo only comes in the 8lb. container.
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Promo uses RD data, but their volumes are NOT the same; in 12 gauge, no biggie - in a small capacity case, maybe?
 
Maybe?
Yes, I suppose "maybe" is a fair question... but as I said, 10,000 rounds of .45 across maybe two dozen different pistols tells me that Promo works.
 
Somewhere back in my mind I seem to recall reading somewhere that Red Dot and Bullseye are so close in burn rate that their relative positions can change depending on the cartridge.
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They are indeed close in burn rate; so yes, probably true.

I was a novice loader at the time (mid-'80's), but I found Red Dot to be more forgiving and less persnickity than Bullseye in load work ups for 357 Magnum, using 125gn and 110gn JHP's. That was a long time ago. I had little experience at the time; but that was my experience, none the less.
 
I have also never had nor used W231
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Wow, you don't read that sentence very often.

conventional wisdom suggest that it (W231) is even BETTER than Red Dot, Promo or Bullseye in handgun ammo.
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That's broad "conventional wisdom" (I know you know this). I find W231/HP-38 to be just a tick slower than Bullseye - just like Red Dot. But W231 tends to run cleaner than either. I have thoroughly confirmed this compared to Bullseye, at least.

I also have no plans to ever buy W231.
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More for me! :p

At that risk of getting off subject here, I think W231 has pretty much got it all. Runs clean. Runs cool (good for lead). Runs well over a broad range. Great for revolvers and semi-autos alike. Highly versatile. Great stuff. Which explains why I have almost 10 #'s of it right now ;). Which also explains why I'm not buying any more Bullseye (I'm out), Nitro 100, AA#2, and TiteGroup - W231 replaces them all.
 
I've tested and used Red Dot in most all the revolver cartridges I shoot. Don't see any downside to using it as long as you use it for light-medium loads. I been shooting 5.0g Red Dot under a 158g SWC in .357 for my general load. Has worked well giving me around 1000fps out a 6 1/2" barrel which is plenty fast for my use. Speaking of the Dot's I also use lots of Green Dot, currently my goto powder in .45 Colt. As for Blue Dot, don't use it hardly at all, although I see I have marked a .357 load as 'very' accurate.

As for W231/HP-38, I also tested it in all the cartridges I shoot. Don't see anything negative in my load tables, but never warmed up to it, so currently have none on my powder shelf. I see I marked some loads as accurate in .44 Special.... More for you Nick ;) .
 
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There is one huge drawback to W231 -- aside from the ten pounds you have stashed, Nick, it's extremely rare to see more than a pound or two appearing anywhere under one roof. It is all (well, almost all...) that you say it is and EVERYONE wants it and buys it.

I've got all of W231's bases covered with the powders I've got. I would never suggest that all handloaders stock the large array of handgun powders I've got, and I'm sure they'll get fine service from W231. I don't need it.

And for the record... W231 will never do the one thing that Titegroup is crazy-good at doing... being completely insensitive to powder position and being a tiny smidge of charge in a massive case. Nothing I have ever tried will do what Titegroup does in this regard.
 
The thing is, there are a lot of great powders that are redundant in performance. I can praise Red Dot, but not buy it because I have plenty of other powder in its class. But if I ran out of Titegroup or whatever, and there was a powder shortage, yet there happens to be Red Dot, I will be happy to buy more. If somebody wants to lay some Red Dot on me for free, I will be even more thrilled and go load some up immediately and have excellent dreams that night. In fact, somebody did just that, but it was big canister of Hercules Green Dot and another one of Unique. I haven't loaded 231 or HP-38 in years now because I honestly don't know when or if I will ever need to buy powder again. You can get upwards of a thousand loads to a pound of pistol powder with a lot of these powders, even in 45 Colt. And I am trying to use some of it up! Sometimes it seems like this stuff just comes to me, other times it's a deal too good to pass up. Not a bad problem to have.....;)
 
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