Recommended reloading dies for .357mag Black Powder

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have must have loaded a bazillion cartridges with Black Powder for Cowboy Action over the years, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 38-40.

You don't have to look up a recipe for loading Black Powder in cartridges. All you have to do is pour in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it.

Although I must confess I have never loaded 357 Mag or 38 Special with BP, the idea is the same.

The Snakebite Greasewagon Big Lube bullet was developed specifically so that when crimped in the crimp groove of a 38 Special round the OAL will be close to the OAL of a 357 Magnum.

Here is a photo of a Snakebite (yes, I have a whole bunch for when I ever decide to load up some 38s with BP) with the crimp groove lined up with a 38 Special case on the left and a 357 Mag case on the right.

When crimped in the crimp groove, the Snakebite bullet will result in an overall length of about 1.550 in a 38 Special case. Just about Max OAL for a 38 Special.

When crimped in the crimp groove, the Snakebite bullet will result in an overall length of about 1.670 in a 357 Mag case. My Lyman Cast Bullets handbook shows a Max OAL for 357 Mag as 1.590. This is probably too long for the cylinder of many revolvers and is probably too long for the carrier of an Uberti 1873 replica lever gun. Yup, just checked the carrier on my 44-40 Uberti '73. The carrier is about 1.620 long. All the Uberti rifles use the same length carrier, no matter what the caliber is. So the first time you try to lever the action with your '73 it will jam for sure with a 357 Mag round loaded with the Snakebite bullet.

The Big Lube family of bullets was designed specifically to hold enough soft BP compatible lube to keep the bore of a rifle lubed with soft bullet lube for its entire length, so hard fouling will not build up in the bore. You can often get away with less bullet lube for a revolver, but frankly all my revolvers keep rolling better with Big Lube bullets than they ever did with standard hard cast bullets pan lubed with a BP compatible bullet lube.

Here is the scoop on the Snakebite Greasewagon Big Lube bullet:

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=ee788c75-7068-4a70-a6f0-6d4ee38b0030




If you want to load BP in a 357 Mag case, you might want to try this bullet instead. Just an educated guess, I have never loaded any myself.

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=ebcdc217-f282-40a1-92ba-ca09fa487426



I do know a few guys who load 38 Specials with Black Powder, in the interest of full disclosure I am not exactly what bullet they use. But I think you will run into less OAL problems if you stay with 38 Specials rather than 357 Mags. Don't worry, you will still get plenty of Smoke and Boom.

Regarding dies, you can use any brand you want to load Black Powder. No different than loading Smokeless in that aspect.

I always load all my BP rounds with a standard roll crimp that is standard on most dies designed for cast bullets. Yes, you do want to full length resize, and yes you do want a nice strong crimp. With a repeater, either a revolver or a lever gun, the last thing you want is bullets jumping forward when the gun recoils. Single shots are a different story. You only load one at a time, so it does not matter if the bullet is not crimped.

P.S. If you want to try some bullets before investing in molds, you can buy Big Lube bullets from Springfield Slim. I used to cast my own, but now I buy them from Slim. He sizes them and lubes them with a BP compatible bullet lube.



http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/index.html

Press the Big Lube button.

 

[horseman308]

Hey Driftwood, thanks for the very thorough response. I saw that note about the length of the bullet and OAL in the Snakebite description and wondered if it would work in a .357mag case. My whole reason for this journey is that I LOVE shooting BP and really don't care to shoot "mouse fart" loads. I want the whole enchildada (you know, smoke, fire, rotten egg smells - knowing for sure I just touched off something real! [emoji41]).

However, I have a very nice set of guns in .357/.38 Special that once belonged to a departed family friend. So, I'm trying to see if I can get most of the BP experience out of this caliber before I really look into buying a whole new rig in .44-40.

So, I'll start with some .38 cases and order some Snakebites to try out. I've got some other 158g cast boolits I'll lube with Emmerts and see how they do, just for comparison.

Now, I'll start with GOEX 3fg, as I've got plenty. Out of curiosity, have you ever tried any 4fg? I know it's considered a no-no as a main charge in most situations, and u wouldn't consider it in any big-bore situation. But in the 20-25 grain arena of the .38, is there any additional velocity that would be worth it?

Thanks!

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[Driftwood Johnson]

No, I have never tried FFFFg in cartridges.

Have never felt the need to try.

I think you will find that a 38 Special case stuffed full of FFFg or FFg will give all the smoke, fire, rotten egg smells you need.

A bunch of years ago I used to keep FFg on hand for 12 gauge shotgun and FFFg for all my other cartridges. 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 38-40. Eventually I got tired of stocking two separate granulations of powder, so now I load every thing with FFg.

All other things being equal you can expect to see between 60fps and 100 fps more velocity using FFFg instead of FFg. All other things being equal. Same case, same bullet, and same volume of powder loaded.

Don't forget, 38 Special was originally designed as a Black Powder cartridge. That is why the case is so long. Normal Smokeless loads in 38 Special don't take up much space inside, and if the cartridge has been designed as a Smokeless round it probably would not have been so long.

For me, FFg in my cartridges gives all the smoke and boom I need.

One other thing. Before I shoot any Black Powder cartridges in any of my revolvers or rifles, I prepare them for BP. I take them apart and strip out any and all lubricants using rubbing alcohol. I clean out the oils in the frame, and dip the lockwork parts in alcohol to get all the parts down to bare metal.

Then I relube everything with Ballistol, which is compatible with Black Powder fouling.

When I clean, I use a 1/1/1 mixture of Murphy's Oil Soap/Rubbing Alcohol/and drugstore Hydrogen Peroxide. This stuff is often called Murphy's Mix. Yes, you can clean with hot water, it works fine. But M Mix works a little bit better. Plus, you don't have to get it all out again like you do with water. If you leave water down inside the mechanism of a firearm, you will get rust. That's why so many use hot water or other techniques to get the water out again. With M Mix you don't have to get it all out. You just leave it down inside. The water present in the solution does the actual dissolving of the BP fouling, the Oil Soap leaves a coating behind that will prevent rust, the alcohol helps with evaporation, and the Per Oxide gives it a little bit of fizz to help lift off stubborn fouling. Plus, you don't have to heat it, you can use it cold at the range if you want. You don't have to clean your guns the moment you get home, within a few days is fine.

Do be sure to drop your spent brass into a jug of water with a few drops of dish soap added. Do this as soon as you get home. If you wait 24 hours you will get verdigris on your brass. Rinse the brass off thoroughly until the rinse water runs clear. The set the brass aside to air dry for a couple of days until it is bone dry. Then you can reload it again.

 

[Rachen]

If you're going to fully-fill w/BP, you really don't need any crimp at all.
Just straighten the mouth out after belling.

I use a Lee portable rig to load .45 LC and .45 Schofield cases in the field and usually I use black powder or BP substitute or Trail Boss. Unless you are planning to shoot the reloads you have made within a few hours, I would always run the cases through the crimp die just to give it a bit more tension at the lips. Even with a slightly oversized bullet, they have a tendency of migrating out of the case when they are carried/moved around.

One time I had the bullets from the unfired rounds in a revolver cylinder move from the recoil of the first 2 shots and protrude just a bit from the chamber faces. I caught it just before I was about to fire the rest of the rounds, so I had to take them out and reseat them.

 

[horseman308]

Thanks again Driftwood. I hadn't thought about needing something like Ballistol for the lock works instead of standard gun oil, but it makes sense. I've always used Murphy's Oil Soap mix for cleaning my flinter and Sharps, but those have so many fewer moving parts. Cheers!

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[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

No doubt B/P can be used in a 357.

Just my suggestion in the long line of free advice.
My preferred set of dies would be those RCBS Cowboy ones {3-dies}if there made for the 357 cartridge?
Best bullet for the purpose would be a raw cast. Measuring slightly larger than bore.

Best way to lube such boolits >pan lube< and cut away excess lube with a Cake Cutter which you can home-make for the purpose.

My preference of cast boolit lube?__ SPG lube.__ A little spendy but indeed the SPG would keep the barrels Black Powders fouling soft.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Best way to lube such boolits >pan lube< and cut away excess lube with a Cake Cutter which you can home-make for the purpose.

I have to disagree.

I pan lubed bullets for years. A slow process, requiring the bullets to sit in an oven for about 20 minutes while the lube melted, then they all had to be punched out. Could only do about 50 at a time. Then repeat the process for the next 50.

The Big Lube bullets run through a lube sizer with a BP compatible bullet lube have it all over pan lubing. Best of all is to use a Star Lubesizer. More spendy, but the best lube sizer on the market. Lyman and RCBS lubesizers cannot deliver enough lube to fill up a big lube groove in one shot. Each bullet has to be rotated and then get another shot. The Star can fill a huge lube groove in one shot, then it poops out the sized/lubed bullet ready for the next. When I was still casting my own bullets I could lube/size a few hundred bullets in 1/2 hour while watching TV. It took muck longer with the RCBS lubesizer.

 

[Hawg]

I pan lube mine and it is a slow process. I use a cake pan on a hotplate. Melt the lube and then put the bullets in it. Once it cools if you're careful you can get the whole cake out without breaking it. If you do break it the ones at the break wont be lubed. Once the cake is out you can just push them through.

 

[horseman308]

I've pan lubed exactly once. Got a Lyman right after. I'll order a bunch of Snakebites and see how I like 'em.

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[darkgael]

Any good set of dies will work.

This ^^^^.
When I loaded for my lever gun, the first load that I tried was a case full of FFg, enough for some compression and a bullet. This load would not group at all, not even at 25 yards.
I took the same load and added a fiber wad between the bulet and powder.....that worked just fine.
ymmv.
Pete

 

[horseman308]

Ok, quick follow-up question: if the Snakebite bullet makes a .357-length cartridge out of a .38Sp length case, do I need to use the .357 length die set-up or the .38 length set-up? I know I can get one die set that will do both, but I want to be clear about what I need.

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[Hellgate]

If you intend to crimp the bullets (not necessary if using full cases of BP in a rifle) you will need the 38SPL dies which have a crimping ring(?) in the seating die. The Snakebite is a long nosed bullet that sticks out of the case. The back half of the bullet is lead & lube.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Ok, quick follow-up question: if the Snakebite bullet makes a .357-length cartridge out of a .38Sp length case, do I need to use the .357 length die set-up or the .38 length set-up? I know I can get one die set that will do both, but I want to be clear about what I need.

I think you need to get a good reloading manual and read it. Not just the section about recipes for various calibers, but the actual process of reloading.

A 357Mag/38 Special die set comes with three dies. The sizing/decap die, the expander or 'belling' die, and the seating/crimp die.

Be sure you buy a die set that has a carbide insert for the sizing/decap die. That way you will not have to use case lube.

You will also need a shell holder that is specific for 357 Mag/38 Sp rims.

You set all the dies by screwing them into your loading press a certain amount. How far you screw them in determines how far the case will run up into the die, which determines what the die will do to the case. Most dies come with a locking ring that can also be screwed up and down on the die. Once you have the die set to the proper depth, screw the locking ring down until it rests against the body of the press. Most locking rings have a set screw so you can lock them to the die at a certain depth. That is so the next time you go to load, the dies will 'remember' their settings and not need to be reset.

Before you start loading and putting powder into your cartridges, set aside a few pieces of brass and a few bullets as your 'try' rounds. You will use them to get your dies set properly. Do not start putting live primers and powder into any cartridges until you have gotten the dies set correctly for your press with the dummy rounds you will make up with these cases and bullets.

Your die set should come with instructions that tell you how to get them adjusted properly for your press.

The first die punches the old primer out and full length resizes the die. Even with brand new brass with no primer in it, you want to run the shell up all the way into the die. Most die sets want you to screw in the sizing decap die until it just touches the top of the shell holder when the ram is raised to the top. That is the correct setting for the first die, do not cam over the ram, just bring the shell holder up all the way and screw the die in until the bottom touches the shell holder. Screw down the locking ring and lock it in place.

Same thing with the 'belling' or expander die. But this time, once the die is locked in position, insert a sized 38 Special case into the shell holder and run it all the way up into the die. There is a plug screwed into the die. This will expand the case mouth a small amount. How much the case mouth is expanded will depend on how far the expander plug is screwed into the die body. The correct amount of 'belling' will flare the case mouth just enough so that when a bullet is seated, it will slide down into the case without scraping off any lead. Generally speaking, the less flare or 'bell' the better. Flaring the case mouth cold works the brass and too much flare can lead to early splitting of the brass at the case mouth. I like to set my expander dies so that I can barely see the flare at the case mouth, but can feel it with my fingers. Since you will be using 38 Special brass with your Snakebite dies, set the die up so it expands a piece of 38 Special brass the correct amount. This means if you want to load 357 Mag ammo on this set of dies, you will have to reset the die for the longer 357 Mag cases.

Hint: Some of us keep two separate sets of dies for similar cases of different lengths. I don't load 357 Mag, so I keep my dies set for 38 Special. But 45 Colt and 45 Schofield can be loaded with the same dies. I keep one set of dies set up for loading 45 Colt and another set setup for loading the shorter 45 Schofield round. I don't load 44 Mag, but I keep one set of dies set for 44 Special and another set setup for the shorter 44 Russian round. That way I don't have to readjust when I load the shorter or longer cartridges.

OK, now we have gotten to setting up the bullet seating/crimp die. Some shooters like to seat their bullets with one die and crimp with a separate crimp die. I like to do both operations at once. There is a constriction machined into the inside of the seating/crimp die. When a case is run up against this constriction, the mouth of the crimp gets rolled over to form a crimp. There is a separate plug screwed into the die that shoves the bullet down into the case. Your Snakebite bullets will have a crimping groove cast into them. This is where you want the crimp to roll into. This time you don't screw the die in until it touches the top of the shell plate. Before screwing the seating/crimp die into the press, back the seating plug out of the die a whole bunch of turns. Place a belled 38 Special case into the shell holder and run the ram all the way up. Slowly screw the die into the press until you feel the case mouth contact the constriction in the die. Lower the case and place a bullet into the case mouth. Remember, no powder yet. Raise the case and bullet into the die. You may have to steady the bullet with your fingers as it enters the die. Depending on how much you backed out the seating plug, it will start to push the bullet into the case. If the case goes up all the way into the die and the plug does not start to seat the bullet, screw the plug in a bit with the case all the way up, until the plug contacts the bullet. Lower the case out of the die and screw the plug in a bit at a time, each time raising the case into the die. Lower the case each time to see how far the plug is shoving the bullet into the case. The correct amount will be when the crimp groove is lined up with the case mouth. Ideally, you probably want the case mouth to be sitting at the center of the crimp groove. Now, you want to set the crimp. Unscrew the seating plug several turns. Lower the ram a bit, then screw the die in about 1/8 of a turn. Run the round with the bullet in it back up into the die. The case mouth should now roll over and crimp into the crimp groove of the die. You can adjust the crimp by adjusting how far the die is screwed into the press. Screw it in a bit more for more crimp, a bit less for less crimp. This is why you set aside a few cases and bullets, for final adjustment to get everything right. Finally, when you are happy with the crimp, screw the seating plug back down so it contacts the bullet in the crimped round. This way, the seating plug will push the bullet to the correct depth, while the crimp is simultaneously being formed. Screw down the locking ring until it contacts the press and lock it in place.

That's it, your dies have now been set up for 38 Special with the Snakebite bullet. If you want to load a different bullet, you will have to reset the seating plug for that specific bullet. Keep the dummies you made up for future reference. I like to keep a few dummies right in the die boxes. That way, if I need to reset for a different bullet or case length, I can use the dummies to get the setting back quickly.

Yes, you absolutely want to crimp your bullets in place. You are not loading for a single shot, you are loading for a repeater, and you don't want bullets jumping forward in unfired rounds from recoil.

My advice on the proper amount of powder for you bullets is enough so that when the bullet is seated, it will compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8". For Black Powder only, not for Smokeless.

P.S. A couple of other things. Die sets for rimmed revolver cartridges generally form a roll crimp. That is the way the constriction in the die is shaped. Take a look at some commercial ammo and you will see how the crimp is rounded over into the crimp groove. That by the way is also a good way to decide if you are crimping the correct amount. Compare your crimps to those on commercial ammo. Taper crimps are for generally for semi-auto pistol ammo. This ammo is usually loaded with jacketed bullets without a crimp groove. The shape of the crimp is tapered, rather than rounded. The tapered crimp will grab the jacketed bullet securely, but it will not dig into the case at all. That way, the round can headspace on the mouth of the cartridge, with the mouth of the taper crimp butting up against the square shoulder in the chamber.

Primers: You will want small pistol primers for 38 Special/357 Mag. Any brand of primer will do for Black Powder. Some will tell you that you need magnum primers to ignite Black Powder. That is incorrect. Black Powder ignites more easily than Smokeless, and regular strength primers are fine for Black Powder. I generally use Federal primers because they are the softest and go off the most easily with light hammer springs. But any brand will do.

Drop Tubes: You may find mention of using a drop tube to drop the powder into your cases. A drop tube is a tube about 2 feet long. You pour the powder into the top of the tube, and gravity packs it more densely in the case than normal. This will also result in fitting a few more grains of powder into the case than just dipping it in. This technique is often used by precision long range rifle shooters for absolute accuracy. Completely unnecessary for the CAS rounds you want to make. I have a Lyman Black Powder measure that I use on my Hornady Lock & Load press when I am loading Black Powder.

I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them on sale at white elephant tables at gun shows. The rotors for the standard Lyman powder measures fit into my Black Powder measure. I set the rotors for the standard powder charges I use in the various Black Powder cartridges I load. That way when I change cartridges I can pop out one rotor and pop in the one for the cartridge I am loading and I am all set, without having to recalibrate anything.

For those cartridges I don't have a rotor set up for yet, I dip the powder into the cartridges with a set of Lee dippers. The correct way to use dippers is to scoop powder into the dipper like you scoop ice cream. The powder will be heaped up in the dipper. Then I take a piece of card and scrape off the excess back into the powder in the coffee mug. This way the powder charge will be relatively consistent from charge to charge. Do not shake the dipper to level off the powder. As I said before, the correct amount of Black Powder for any cartridge and bullet combination will be the amount that gets compressed between 1/16" to 1/8" when seating the bullet. With Big Lube bullets you do not need any extra wads or grease cookies. And don't worry about the powder distorting the shape of the base of the bullet when you use it to compress the powder. It will not distort it enough to matter for CAS.

Here is a closeup view of a bunch of 45 Colt rounds being loaded on my Hornady press. The completed round with the bullet seated is about to be kicked out of the press by the kick out wire. Going around clockwise from there is a case that is about to be decapped and sized, then one that is about to be belled, then a belled case ready for powder, then a charged case ready for a bullet. You can see the top of the powder charge in that one.

 

[horseman308]

Driftwood, thanks so much for the very detailed response. That must have taken quite some time. I'll pull my Lyman 49th this evening. I appreciate you taking the time!

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