Recommended 9mm's for new guy

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Guys,

It is always fun to read what people have to say about the P7. Try this logic...

1. Don't buy it as a first gun--the squeeze cocker is too strange.
2. Don't buy it as a second gun--once you have learned other guns, the squeeze cocker is just too wierd to learn.

hmm...would it not be simpler to just say don't buy the P7.

As far as the pistol trials go...

The stoppages were likely a result of the P7M8 being a fairly radical revision to the basic p7 line. The P7 ( and psp) had existed for a few years and was/is famed for its reliability. When they came out with the M8, HK compromised the original design with a silly american-style clip release (and a clunky 13 shot version). The problem turned out to be the early M8 magazines. I don't think the flawed magazines were ever availible to the public.

As far as reliability goes, the P7 will run rings around most of the guns mentioned so far. I have a G23, it has jammed 3 times in its first 800 rounds (that kills any chance that I am blowing money on hi-caps). I had a Sig 228, no jams (on factory ammo...my old reloads could jam a single shot zip gun) but the guns started working a pin out of the slide almost immediately. BHP, in my limited experience, are not worth the hassel. I had a USP40c and it was reliable, but so-so in accuracy and clunky as heck. The P7 will run circles around them all. Get with it guys! :)

GHB

PS...
The rust problem remains a problem. When you buy a gun that is machined out of a solid block of forged carbon steel you end up with a gun that can rust. Sadly, you won't be able to leave your P7 in the mud for a year. On the other hand, barring mudslides your P7 will be shooting long after the plastic and aluminum guns have fallen to pieces.



[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 21, 1999).]
 
TO: GHB

I like the HK P7M8! I don't own one but it is the only HK pistol I would spend $$$ on...
I just think it is not a good first gun!!!
The first reason being the price...
Lets face it, it is very $$$!!!
My first car was not a BMW!!!
And though it is top of the line (HK P7M8)- (arguably one of the finest 9MMs) that does not mean there aren't other 9MMs out there that can do the same thing the HK does at a much lower cost...
The 9MM I suggested (SIG P225) is roughly the same size as the HK P7M8, has same mag capacity and is substantially less expensive than the HK... (accessories included!!!)
I have seen the P225 for approx. $300-$400. I have never seen the HK P7M8 for less than $900 (USED!-FFLers excluded)...
Thats approx. $500+/- difference!!!
IMHO it is not good advice to advise someone who is buying a first car to buy a MERCEDES,
when all they need is a TOYOTA...

As far as the MOD of operation goes, the P7 is the only gun with the "squeeze-cocker." Thus a NEWBEE has no frame of reference for comparison...
HE may buy a P7M8 for a whole lot of money!!!
Shoot BRAND X, only to find out that he does not like the unique HK P7 operation...
Hence he is stuck with a $$$ gun that he really did not need... or may not want later???
My 00.02...

FOOTNOTE:
I really like my WILSON COMBAT "STEALTH" perhaps more than you like your P7...
But I will never recommend it to anyone...
Not because it is not a GREAT GUN, but because it is not a realistic gun for most people... (VERY, VERY $$$)...
Not everyone has the kind of passion that WE do for our weapons, especially not an "uneducated" NEWBEE... (no offense)
We spend lots of $$$ on our weapons because we are part of the CULTURE... and to some extent it says something about who we are.

However we should be able to rationalize choices in a realistic $$$ manner when giving others advice, especially when it comes to the GREEN STUFF...

RESPECTFULLY,


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SURE SHOT


[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited October 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited October 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited October 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited October 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited October 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited October 21, 1999).]
 
Perhaps, then, a Lorcin is in order.

Sig 225s are larger, less safe, have a shorter barrel and are less durable than the P7M8. Hk P7 can be had from $550 used for good guns these days. A P7 I would unflinchingly buy used, a Sig I would not. The 225 is made of aluminum and sheet metal stampings. The early Sigs are not very durable (by early I mean the pre-229 sheet metal guns.)

The problem is that I do not subscribe to the "only buy a gun you are comfortable with" theory. Barring physical limitations like, among others, hand-size and arthritis, I think that some guns are objectivly superior to other guns. Buy the best gun and then learn to like it. No matter how much you like that Lorcin, no matter how comfortable you are shooting it, buy someting else. In other words, I think everybody should have a Mercedes!

However, I must admit, the Sig 239 is appealing. It has the single-piece slide and very compact dimensions (still bigger with a shorter barrel than the P7). I know this might offend Sig purists, but I think the American 239 is better than the 225. Of course, the 225 is a 20 year old design (as is the P7).
GHB

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 21, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited October 21, 1999).]
 
First step--do your homework on the brands you're interested in.

My suggestions for 9mm, in no particular order: Beretta, Taurus, Glock, HK, SIG- Sauer, Ruger.

Berettas have been around for a long time, and have a solid reputation. They're also slim enough to conceal easy.

Taurus makes a pretty good clone of Beretta's 92F. I think it has good balance and control.

Glock seems to enjoy an extreme amount of popularity. The polymer (plastic) frame helps offset the cost of materials, but it's tough and reliable. It's also simple to maintain. Just be sure you get one in a 9mm and NOT a .40

H&Ks are, in my opinion, the BMWs of handguns. They cost more, but are built extremely well for the purpose they are designed for, and H&K has a long-standing reputation of putting out high-quality and leading edge weaponry. The USP series are combat pistols through and through (see www.streetpro.com/usp and www.remtek.com/arms to see the proof tests these went through). I personally prefer H&K, and own a USP9 Stainless myself, but some don't like the feel. But then again, you can say that about all the others.

Which brings up another point--don't buy a pistol just for the name nor the looks. Buy what you are able to use comfortably. I think .50 Desert Eagles are impressive guns, but I would never actually own one--they're just too big for me to use comfortably.

SIG-Sauers are typical of Swiss Engineering. Precisely made, very accurate, and both elegant and practical.

Try as many of them out as you can, take into account your budget, and make your purchase. Happy hunting!

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
 
I will respecfully take issue with the notion that the American made Sigs are better than Euro models. True, the single piece blackened stainless steel slide is an improvement but the German workmanship much better. I have owned both and prefer the German-made product even with the two-piece carbon steel slide. Case in point: the 239's have had a rash of inferior take down levers and recoil spring guides. I got one of the lemons and had to send it back to New Hampshire new-in-the-box. I have heard of German Sigs rusting or malfunctioning after several hundred rounds but I have never heard of one getting out of the factory with inferior components from the git-go. Bottom line: guns break. Stay with the Beretta,Glock,H&K,Sig or Smith and Wesson lines and you want go wrong. If choose a budget make, I guarantee you, you'll be back in six months to trade up once you get into the swing of things. Pay now or pay more later. Good luck.


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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
As you can see everyone has his own opinion based on what works for them. I read that you live in Barstow. A nice and quiet town. I live on the western edge of the county in Corona so I'm familiar with most of the gunshops in Riverside county. I'll be frank, most don't have a great selection in your neck of the woods. Since you are planning to spend a few hundred dollars I suggest you take the time and visit the following two shops. The first is Turner's Outdoorman. They have a location in the City of Riverside right by Tyler Mall. They usualy have a sample of many of the major lines. The second place I suggest is in Orange County. It's called Fowler's Gunroom. This place is in the City of Orange about where the 55 Freeway and 22 Freeway meet. This place has EVERY good gun ever made! You want to buy a Browning high grade in NRA mint? Its here. How about a Sig p-210? I've seen them here. This is no exageration. The sales people tend to be older retired longtime shooters with lots of experience. They can be an opiniated, lot but very few places can match such a comprehensive collection to handle. It will be worth you time to drive out Fowler's.
 
TO: GHB

I can assure you that the SIG P239 is MUCH!!! smaller than the HK P7M8...

And by your rational, why stop at a MERCEDES...
Go ahead and get a FERRARI...

The SIG 210 9MM SA is " perhaps one of the most sought after semi-automatic pistols in the world!" And it cost twice as much as an HK P7M8, so it must be the best 9MM...



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SURE SHOT
 
Mr. Montes,

Here are some thoughts on our little 239/P7M8 discussion. You say that the 239 is "much!!!" smaller than the P7M8. Unfortunately, this is simply not true. First, the 239 is .13 inches shorter in overall length. However, this is due to the little lanyard ring that protrudes from the bottom of the P7’s handle. In fact, the P7PSP, which does not have the little ring, is .06 inches shorter than the 239. Second, the 239 is .06 inches taller than the P7M8—nothing to debate here (FYI: the PSP is .1 inches shorter than the 239). Third, the 239 is .06 inches wider than the P7M8. Therefore, for all practical carry purposes, the P7M8 is smaller (and the P7PSP is smaller in every way).

What is more impressive is the fact that the P7 has a .53 inch longer barrel and a .63 inch longer sight radius—despite an overall length only .13 longer (and all of that being in the little lanyard ring—just file it off). This shows how much more thoughtful the HK engineers were in sorting out their design. Further, the P7 does not have all those awkward levers hanging off the side of the gun to snag your clothes. The M8 is sleek—the PSP is extremely so.

When I made the Mercedes comment I was saying that I thought everyone should have the best. I only used the Mercedes as an example of the best because you used it in an earlier analogy. Still, there is nothing wrong with the image. The funny thing is that you brought up the Ferrari. Clearly, a Ferrari is, for almost every practical purpose, inferior to a Mercedes (reliability, ergonomics, interior room, every day driving). This would be like trying to carry a scoped, chrome plated 50 AE Desert Eagle. Powerful? Yes. Practical? No. Your earlier analogy was more to the point: Mercedes v. Toyota. The Mercedes is superior in almost every way—most importantly in every practical way.

Respectfully,

GHB
 
To: GHB

The Mercedes is practical in everyway except PRICE, which was my original point to begin with...

P225 for $300-$400 which shoots as good as any and better than most, or HK P7M8 for $900-$1000 which also shoots as good as any and better than most...

Don't ask me were LORCIN came from, if you are comparing LORCIN to SIGs your way out in left field...

As far as the P239 v HK P7 compact debate I am not going to measure the guns, don't have the time nor inclanation...

I do know that I have eld both and the SIG feels much more compact in hand...

The gun is shorter by your own testament, giving it a more compact feature (length) from the git go...

The HK P7M8 does have a relatively large stock with the "SQUEEZE COCKER" maybe not in width, but in every other aspect its stock is by no means SMALL, regardless of the width...

But all this is neither here nor there, we can debate this till the cows come home and it only steers away from the original topic...

That being a good first choice for a 9MM.
Like I said before I like the HK P7M8, it is a really good gun. Perhaps HKs best pistol. The only one from HK I would ever care to own.

But I do not recommend it as a first gun primarily based on its retail price (in $1K range), it cost more than "MOST" people are willing to pay...

Again, the HK P7M8 is a good gun, but the SIG P225 or any other SIG for that matter is every bit as good a weapon of choice, for approx. half the cost of the pricy P7M8.

P.S. To all first time 9MM handgun buyers, when you are done with those 9s move up to .45s. As COL. COOPER says "taking a 9mm into combat is like wearing loafers to an ass kicking contest." Me...
I will stick to my STEEL TOE REDWINGs in .4-5 A-U-T-O

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SURE SHOT
 
Mr. Montes,

Uhh, if you re-read my post you will see that the P7 is smaller (in objective terms) in every way unless you count the little lanyard ring (unless you are smart and buy the better PSP which doesn't have this feature). The P7 is slimmer, shorter and for all purposes the same length. Quite a bit different than your "much!!!" smaller claim for the 239. The truth is simply this: the P7 is a smaller and handier gun for carry. This putting aside the 239's unnecessarily short barrel, sight radius and the traditional SIG sketchy durability. The claim that the 225/239 is just as good for half the price is absurd. It's decent.

[I got my figures from Sig's webpage and my P7 manuals]

I purchased my last P7 for $899 new. It is true that you can pay more, but it isn't necessary if you have patience. Even if you had to pay $900+ it would be worth it. In reality, $900 just isn't that much more than the $500 you might pay for lesser guns. This is were the car analogy (yours) fails. A $30k + difference is serious business when it comes to most people's ability to buy something. But, if we are honest, $400 isn't. If you are willing to save up $500 to buy a pistol, why not wait a little while longer and get the best (your life is worth it)? I agree that some people can't afford $900 pistols--but these very same people can't afford $500 pistols.

Lorcins...I was simply responding to the simplistic "the gun you feel is best for you" advice. Just because you like a Lorcin does not make it the best gun for you. Simple point. This only relates to the Sig to the extent that it shares inferiority to the P7 with the Lorcin.

45s? I haven't seen any data that convinces me that the 45 is superior to the 9mm in real-world terms. Furthermore, assuming you are talking about stuff 380 or larger, selecting the best gun is far more important than worrying about which bullet displaces the most Jell-O. How about a 454 revolver?

Jeff Cooper was a big fan of the P7. He hates guns like the Glock and Sig (at least the last time I read the old guy).

I am enjoying this discussion.

Respectfully,
GHB
 
It seems a good way to pass the time for me too...
But I think that it is pretty dead in the H2O...

Regardless of what you think that I am thinking, I know that the P7M8 is a great gun and I do not think your convinced of that...

Do I think it is worth paying $500 more than a SIG...
Common sense tells me that it is not...

And $500 is a lot of money to ME, especially since I am a LOWLY enlisted man who does have a family to support...

I would much rather spend that extra money on my WIFE than on a GUN...

But AGAIN that is just me...

And peoples priorities are different...

Once AGAIN, the beauty of being an AMERICAN!!!

Continue to enjoy it...



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SURE SHOT
 
First of all I would like to thank everyone who has repied to my question on 9mm's. Your response was overwhelming and very educational. I went to a shooting range this weekend and fired four 9's: Glock 19, Sig 226, Tauras PT92AF and Ruger P95DC. I liked the Glock 19 and the Sig 226 very much although I am leaning more toward the Glock because I price differences. My question is:

1. What is a good price on a Glock 19?

2. Does anyone know of an upcoming gun show in the southern california area?

Thanks,
David
 
Allow me to end this chain.
I was once in your shoes. I bought a Beretta 92 and was happy with it. It's still a great gun, especially with the high-caps. I keep it in teh house now. I subsequently owned USPs, a SIG 226, as well as several revolvers. Presently on my hip sits the finest combat 9mm ever made, the HK P7M8. You can find them used for 650. You won't be disappointed.
Alternatively, you can forge your own way, and either you will find contentment along the way with a relaible Chevrolet, or you will eventually come to the land of the P7. Praise be.
All in all, the journey is almost as much fun as the destination, so just start.
 
If you want a 9mm for fun, play the field and have a ball. If you need reliability, I have but one word of advice, dont go with a Smith & Wesson auto. Unless it has been totally reworked for an extra $1000.00 it will never be what you want.
 
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