Recommendations needed on higher end .22 pistols

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cornered rat

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I want to replace the S&W model 17 that I gave to my mother. Michlle has a preference for autoloaders, so it will be one of the following: S&W Model 41, Browning Buckmark (which sub-model?), Ruger Mk.II slab-barrel target model or ...?

I owned a Colt Cadet bull-barrel .22 and do not want another one.

My reservations about the S&W are:

-how hard/easy is it to field strip?
-reliability with variety of ammo
-availability/price of magazines?
-10rd mags when the design called for 12

About Mk.II
-Field-stripping...is there any way to learn it?

About Buckmark
-Does it keep zero after cleaning?
-Reliability?

Other contenders include Beretta 84

-accuracy/reliability/availaviity of extra mags?

Bersa whatevermodelnumber is:

-same? durability, too?

Any other ideas. I am open to spending up to $750 on new or used .22 with at least four magazines. I would like to use it mainly for target practice and also for teaching newbies.

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Cornered Rat
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Have you consider a Sig-Hammerli Trailside? It is being sold as Hammerli Essce in Europe. A demo, I played with, looks and feel like a Hammerli 208. Fit and finish is superb. Too bad I did not have time to test the trigger quality or accuracy though. : (
But it feel good for the price tag ($600ish).
Another suggestion is the Beneli 95E. But the quality trigger quality is average. The higher end Beneli 95S is my favorite. Both Sig-Hammerli and Beneli are on par with the S&W M41 but cheaper and built with the purposes you described. However, beware that like any other European guns, you have less option to put on them. I prefer mine to be all original part and do not tinker with my guns, so they suit me fine.
Good shooting, SierraLima.
 
cr: You must really love your mother. It will be hard to find an auto that out-shoots your M17. I have owned about every high-end .22 pistol you are considering, and a few others, except for the Buckmark. The S&W 41 is a fine gun and was at one time the most-often-seen make on the target line. I found the long-barreled version waspy; the grip uncomfortable. I just couldn't find the 'sweet spot' with this gun. The shorter heavy-barrel version might balance better. The Browning Medalist was phenomenally accurate, but the gorgeous target grip didn't fit, and I traded it. (BAAAAd move!) The Ruger is the most economical target-grade pistol going, but it DOES need trigger work before it's fully competitive. The tale about Rugers being hard to strip and clean is nonsense: it can be done in 10 seconds easily when you know how...and you learn how by doing it right once. For my personal use I finally settled on a High Standard Military Trophy with the long fluted barrel. I would have been just as pleased with the Victor for a bit more money. I have two Ruger Mark I Targets as backups. If you like to shoot the 1911, you'd love the old High Standard. Don't buy one of the newly manufactured ones, though, they are not equal to the Connecticut guns pre-1981. Others have mentioned the Hammerli...it would certainly be worth considering, but the question of price, as well as of parts and service, arises. Finally, a reminder that your taste and judgement is what must finally decide. What worked for me may be NG for you. There's no substitute for trying them all, and no better assurance of satisfaction than making the holes in the paper yourself. slabsides

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An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject; a disarmed man is a slave.
 
If you're REALLY getting serious about .22 bullseye, then the Buckmark is out, the MKII is marginally in, and the S&W Model 41 is probably your best best. And if you want to do better, be prepared to spend $1,000 plus...

(I have a Mk II Target Competition, and love it, but its not very common among bullseye shooters.)

The exotics, Hammerli, Bennelli, etc are what is used by the serious BE shooters.

As for stripping the MK II, you need someone to show you how to do it, once, and you'll never have a problem. Its really simple -- but its easiest to learn when someone who knows how can show you.

It took me a half an hour the first time I tried, to put it back together. Now it takes about 45 secs to a minute. There's a little toggle attached to the internal hammer (or striker -- not sure about the terminology in this case) that must be positioned "just so" to fit properly in the backstrap; get that positioned right and its a piece of cake.


[This message has been edited by Walt Sherrill (edited September 26, 1999).]
 
I shot a Buckmark (fluted barrel) at the range today and disqualified it. For one, it requires largish hands to operate. For another, its sights come off for cleaning, not integral with the barrel.

I am thinking of getting a Mk.II with slabside barrel and wooden grips. Bull barrel seemed too front-heavy for my taste.

Benelli etc. are too much $$ and precision for my taste. This .22 is for teaching and incidentally target work. I will not put a scope of red dot on it, and so will be limited by my eyes, an unsteady hand and standard adjustable sights.
 
cr, the high end .22 are high dollar. SAKO Triace, Walther GSP, Hammerli 280 and 208S. I have the SAKO and 208S and they are a dream to shoot. I was able to examine the SIG/Hammerli PL-22 in many variations. It should be available here this fall and the retail price for the target version is around $450. They all come with the 25 meter test target on the gold hang tag. All the pistols shot one ragged hole, some no larger that a pea, the largest group had shots strung vertically about 1/2". It will be the best pistol available in a mid-range .22, it appears to shoot as well as my 208S.
 
cr: If teaching is going to be a primary use of your new .22 pistol, then I suggest excluding from your consideration any pistol with an unusual control layout (such as the High Standards) or design (all the Euro-pistols with the magazine forward of the trigger, such as the Benelli, the Pardini and the Hammerli 280 and SP-20). My reasoning is that a "conventional" .22 pistol would help new shooters learn the manipulation of the slide release, magazine release and safety as well as basic marksmanship skills.

I'm a bullseye shooter and after five years of competition I'm still looking for the "right" .22 pistol. I started out with a Browning Buckmark and did well with it (for a marksman/sharpshooter) but got tired of the disassembly routine and couldn't find any good target stocks for it. Then I tried a Ruger Mk II, which I liked a lot. The iron sights weren't very good but I shot it with a red dot sight. The trigger was decent after a little work. I sold the Ruger after getting a good deal on an old S&W 41, which I'm still shooting. The 41 has an excellent trigger, field strips easily, and can switch barrels in a matter of seconds. The downside to the current production models is that they're overpriced, not hand-fitted as carefully as the old ones, and equipped with Millett sights, which I find too small for serious target shooting.

If you also shoot a 1911-type pistol, you might want to try a .22 conversion. I just got a Bob Day conversion unit a few weeks ago and it's great -- very accurate with excellent iron sights.
 
One consideration that did not occur to me earlier: at least some people I will teach will be left-handed. I can't think of any autoloaders that are leftie-friendly (I know thumbrest grips aren't). I got another slightly anti-CCW guy engaged for a range trip for handgun familiarization, and hope to get a .22 soon. So far, slabside with standard grips or older used S&W41 are top choices. How much $$ are SW41 magazines? Anything to look out for in used ones?

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Cornered Rat
http://dd-b.net/RKBA RKBA posters
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S&W 41 magazines (the same ones used in the discontinued 2206) cost about $20-25. As far as I know, there are no aftermarket magazines for the 41. Note, however, that magazines for the new S&W 22A will NOT interchange with those for the 41, even though they look similar.

That reminds me -- one thing I dislike about the M41 is the magazine "safety". It's the biggest reason that I don't own any other S&W autoloaders.
 
Gack! That disqulifies the 41 for me (I *hate* guns with unneeded complexities, esp. if that "feature" is meant to render the gun inoperable). Guess I will go for a Ruger Mk.II slabside and beg some RKI to show me the disassemly process.
 
I have a Beretta Model 89. It is much better than most of the .22LR and it of very close cousin of the famous 92. Take down is extremely easy and this model has all the trimmings of a "target" .22LR. It is priced near the SW 41 at about $699.
 
My fovorite 22 pistol is my Ruger 22/45. It is built on the same action as the Mk II but the mag release is behind the triger (american style) vs. the Mk II's mag release at the heel of the grip (european style). The grip size and angle are exactly the same as the 1911 style pistols. I have a 22/45 with a 6 1/2 inch slab sided barrel and I love it. I put 1,000-2,000 rounds through it each weekend (for the past two years). Striping is a breaze and there is no "secret" to learn, just read the manual. The only down side to the pistol is that you can't change the grip due to the fact that the frame is made out of polymer. An eazy way to alter the grips is to either buy some hogue handall slip on grips or put some skateboard tape in the right spots.

bt
 
I have a S&W 41 which I love. In the $500 dollar range, I have found none better. Cleaning and such are not overly comlicated and barrel swaps are a snap. Trigger action is very good and accuracy is top notch.

When the new "Sig" Trailsides start shipping I think they will give S&W some trouble because they are another superb pistol that will take market share away for premium 22lr pistols (forcing S&W to either price match or up the quality a few level).

Ruger's get a huge amount of talk but, I just don't like them. They don't fit my hands and quality control is not as tight as I like (should a front sight shoot loose on a bull barrel 22lr?).

The Browning Buckmarks in the bull barrel variations seems to get good results once people get used to them but, they are over shadowed on the cheaper end by Ruger and on the price'ier end by S&W 41's. Steer clear of the smaller skinny barrel Buckmark's.

Sid
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Tx FFL
 
I have a Browning Buckmark w/ a bull barrel, and the sights stay at zero when you replace the rear sight after reassembly. I haven't touched them after 20-30 cleanings. The gun has about 30,000 to 40,000 rounds through it with almost no wear. not a bad deal.
 
CR,
For that amount of drachmas, you could consider:
Colt Woodsman Target Match, 2nd or 3rd Model.
High Standard Victor (multiple bbl lengths & wts are available).

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Mykl
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"If you really want to know what's going on;
then, you have to follow the money trail."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
Hello Sid Post,

You stated that you thought the original poster (of this thread) should stay away from the Browning Buckmark with the "smaller skinny barrel".

Why do you say this?

I am curious because I just purchased that very model of pistol for $244.02 (tax and background fees included) at a "we're quitting" sale (now there is just one gunshop in my town of over 700,000 people).

I thought I was getting a very good target pistol for non-competition level accuracy...which is not to say that I will accept sloppy gun mechanics (or should I have said "behavior"?). I was and am aware how this model breaks down for cleaning and such.

Anyway, I am indeed curious what your experience has been with these pistols that would lead you to say what you did.

Thanks for your explantion,

Duncan
 
IIRC, the S&W 41 uses a standard-type mag release while most others are Euro heel-types.

I shot one extensively while a teenager, and found that although the standard grip as a bit big for me and the front sight (7-inch bbl) seemed to wobble all over and never settle down, I shot better groups with it, especially rapid-fire.

You'd need to refit it with an ambidextrous type grip, or custom-whittle it yourself. Considering what you'd get out of the deal, I'd say that effort is worthwhile.

Make an exception to your anti-mag safety preference. If you're teaching beginners, it makes your task marginally safer re: quick-moving folks who surprise you with boo-boos.

Save the live-fire demo of "this does NOT unload the gun" for a centerfire semiauto. The louder BANG drives the point home much more solidly!

I vote for the Smith.
 
I love my Browning Buckmark .22! It was my first handgun (got it 3 years ago as a christmas present!) I moved on to a Glock 21 but still shoot the .22, cost effective and a great training aide. I think they paid $200 for it, not too bad compared to the $520 I paid for the Glock (hi-cap mag price not included!)
 
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