recently attacked by man with cane
- Thread starter Bluesfan
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spacemanspiff
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And don't even get me started on those who brazenly go around with their High-Capacity Assault EAWs! (Evil Aluminum Walkers)
I digress, sorry, but I had to say something stupid. I will shut up now.
I digress, sorry, but I had to say something stupid. I will shut up now.
Getting closer can be better...
... but if the person has trained at stick fighting, there is a counter to somebody coming inside the swing.
IE, check the swing, and convert it from circular to a linear, pommel strike attack to the face or throat.
This is a fun one to do on the mat, with padded weapons. Generally speaking, the strike gets through, and the person trying to close on the stick goes over backwards.
... but if the person has trained at stick fighting, there is a counter to somebody coming inside the swing.
IE, check the swing, and convert it from circular to a linear, pommel strike attack to the face or throat.
This is a fun one to do on the mat, with padded weapons. Generally speaking, the strike gets through, and the person trying to close on the stick goes over backwards.
This type of discussion devolves down to yes or no answers to highly subjective situations.
Everyone has to make their own decision on when a situation reaches a point where they fear for their lives and when deadly force is appropriate.
Simply saying "a man with a cane" doesn't do it.
From the description given by the OP I don't think deadly force or even the threat of deadly force would have been appropriate.
BTW in answer to a question of what the officers in the closed thread should have done instead of deadly force; there is a technique called mobbing. Mobbing is basically several officers dog piling the non-compliant offender. The cane would not be effective while being grappled by 3 or more officers.
But once again I wasn't there and the guy that got shot might have been the Bruce Lee of cane wielders. I tend to doubt it though.
Everyone has to make their own decision on when a situation reaches a point where they fear for their lives and when deadly force is appropriate.
Simply saying "a man with a cane" doesn't do it.
From the description given by the OP I don't think deadly force or even the threat of deadly force would have been appropriate.
BTW in answer to a question of what the officers in the closed thread should have done instead of deadly force; there is a technique called mobbing. Mobbing is basically several officers dog piling the non-compliant offender. The cane would not be effective while being grappled by 3 or more officers.
But once again I wasn't there and the guy that got shot might have been the Bruce Lee of cane wielders. I tend to doubt it though.
Buzzcook...
... in this thread, we all agree the old guy with the cane was just an old guy with a cane; some of us think the OP should have moved away sooner, instead of arguing with a guy who was sticking a cane in his face, but none of us think that merited deadly force.
In the OTHER thread, the police had already hit the BG with tasers and shotgun-fired bean bags, and he still kept coming. He was described as in his 30's, and large; he obviously had very high pain tolerance. Are you seriously saying you'd want to go hands on with that?
If so, you're either braver than I am, or else you have a lot more technique and strength than I do.
Then again, it is the internet...
... in this thread, we all agree the old guy with the cane was just an old guy with a cane; some of us think the OP should have moved away sooner, instead of arguing with a guy who was sticking a cane in his face, but none of us think that merited deadly force.
In the OTHER thread, the police had already hit the BG with tasers and shotgun-fired bean bags, and he still kept coming. He was described as in his 30's, and large; he obviously had very high pain tolerance. Are you seriously saying you'd want to go hands on with that?
If so, you're either braver than I am, or else you have a lot more technique and strength than I do.
Then again, it is the internet...
What choice? get in yer car and lock the doors then drive off.
I was taught to respect the elderly, but if one is trying to hit me, I can run away, or take the cane away, I dont think I could have done any harm to any older guy.
Remember Billy Jack? I know was movie crap but there was one scene where his sensei had a cane and they were demonstrating its use in SD. Very good SD tool for some.
You must use common sense in these matters.
What does force in kind mean?
Not being a lawyer myself, I don't know if a cane close to the face without making contact is the same threat, under the law, as a raised cane ready to strike. Or that an old man represents the same threat as a stronger, younger man, with a similar weapon.
I'd expect a lawyer who carries a gun to understand that if he had time to draw his weapon, he'd also have time to back off and get from under the old man's threat.
Maybe we shouldn't be bringing up the use of deadly force in this instance, given the circumstances and age of the enraged 'ol man. The guards who rescued you didn't draw their weapons, did they?
I suspect that if you shot the man in a similar circumstance you would be charged, and who know what would happen with the jury?
If I were on the jury I would be hard pressed to consider that the older man with the cane was a deadly threat. You would have to prove that you had a legitimate fear of death or great bodily harm and that you were not able to avoid an attack.
If the person had to use a cane he would, by assumption, be handicapped to the extent he could not pursue or out-maneuver you. If you saw him before he actually attacked you I would assume that you should be able to avoid being hurt badly enough to justify deadly force.
Regards,
Jerry
If I were on the jury I would be hard pressed to consider that the older man with the cane was a deadly threat. You would have to prove that you had a legitimate fear of death or great bodily harm and that you were not able to avoid an attack.
If the person had to use a cane he would, by assumption, be handicapped to the extent he could not pursue or out-maneuver you. If you saw him before he actually attacked you I would assume that you should be able to avoid being hurt badly enough to justify deadly force.
Regards,
Jerry
Bluesfan, I can attest from personal experience that damage that a cane can do. If you or anyone else does not understand this, check Fairbaine’s (Sp) manual the umbrella drill.
Under the conditions you described the best thing to do is swallow ones pride and beat a hasty retreat. It could be very hard to convince either a criminal or civil jury that you had no choice but to use deadly force to defend yourself from a pathetic old man with a cane.
Is tort litigation starting to look like a viable option, now?
Under the conditions you described the best thing to do is swallow ones pride and beat a hasty retreat. It could be very hard to convince either a criminal or civil jury that you had no choice but to use deadly force to defend yourself from a pathetic old man with a cane.
Is tort litigation starting to look like a viable option, now?
MLeake: I am not particularly brave or skilled. However I would expect a group of police officers to be both skilled and strong and yes, brave.
There are thing which people can do in groups that one person working alone cannot do. One of those things is to gang up on an individual using the strength of numbers.
As I stated I wasn't there. I have seen what happens when people gang up on one person. With only a couple exceptions numbers won.
Buzzcook...
Without meaning to sound like a jerk (or, at least, any more like a jerk than I may have, earlier)...
... the OP in the previous thread didn't post a link to the case we were discussing. One thing we do not know, from the info that was provided, is how many police were on the scene. The "group" may have been two officers; we were only told there were officers, not how many; we also don't know ages, genders, and sizes of the officers who were there.
Additionally, we don't know what the original attempt at an arrest was over. If the guy was behaving oddly, and that was the reason for the call, then the officers' reaction might be different than if they were responding to a call of a guy who had just broken somebody's arm with a cane.
So, your point about mobbing could be valid, in that it might have been viable in their situation - but it might not have been; can't say based on what we were given.
And the fact remains, a person can hurt you badly with the first swing.
A factor we haven't really discussed, and one that is always true for cops and might be true for us - if the BG does score a disabling shot with the stick, he has immediate access to a firearm the moment later.
Without meaning to sound like a jerk (or, at least, any more like a jerk than I may have, earlier)...
... the OP in the previous thread didn't post a link to the case we were discussing. One thing we do not know, from the info that was provided, is how many police were on the scene. The "group" may have been two officers; we were only told there were officers, not how many; we also don't know ages, genders, and sizes of the officers who were there.
Additionally, we don't know what the original attempt at an arrest was over. If the guy was behaving oddly, and that was the reason for the call, then the officers' reaction might be different than if they were responding to a call of a guy who had just broken somebody's arm with a cane.
So, your point about mobbing could be valid, in that it might have been viable in their situation - but it might not have been; can't say based on what we were given.
And the fact remains, a person can hurt you badly with the first swing.
A factor we haven't really discussed, and one that is always true for cops and might be true for us - if the BG does score a disabling shot with the stick, he has immediate access to a firearm the moment later.
One of my favorite "takedowns" by officers...
.... was in Seattle, several years ago. A guy named Tony Allison got into a standoff with SPD in the middle of downtown. He was wielding a katana, and menacing passersby.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/169222/samurai_sword_vs_police/
SPD officers were able to set up a perimeter. Allison made a few bluff charges, but backed to his corner when met with chemical sprays, etc. Eventually, the Seattle Fire Department provided a fire truck, and Allison was knocked over with a fire hose blast, then rushed by SPD.
End result: Allison survived, and no officers were injured.
Major difference: Allison was turned back by less than lethal means, each time he tried to close.
Sad comment: SPD received complaints from many citizens over the amount of time they allowed the incident to shut down traffic.
.... was in Seattle, several years ago. A guy named Tony Allison got into a standoff with SPD in the middle of downtown. He was wielding a katana, and menacing passersby.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/169222/samurai_sword_vs_police/
SPD officers were able to set up a perimeter. Allison made a few bluff charges, but backed to his corner when met with chemical sprays, etc. Eventually, the Seattle Fire Department provided a fire truck, and Allison was knocked over with a fire hose blast, then rushed by SPD.
End result: Allison survived, and no officers were injured.
Major difference: Allison was turned back by less than lethal means, each time he tried to close.
Sad comment: SPD received complaints from many citizens over the amount of time they allowed the incident to shut down traffic.
TheGoldenState
New member
lol
Speaking of juries, it's going to be a slam dunk for the old man's attorney put the guy in the courtroom and "ham it up" as a frail little old guy who can barely walk without his cane, much less threaten anyone with it.
The old man with the cane is not your only opposition here.
Just something else to think about.
--Wag--
The old man with the cane is not your only opposition here.
Just something else to think about.
--Wag--
Wildalaska
Moderator
Did you file a felony complaint against him for attempted assault with a deadly weapon?
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