Receiver blank build - when does it become a rifle?

Aguila Blanca said:
The BATFE position is that whichever it is first built as is what it is. Build your receiver into a rifle, and you will always have a rifle. Build it as a pistol, and it's a pistol forever.
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This arguably isn't entirely accurate.

26 U.S. Code § 5845(a)(4) and § 5845(c) clearly state that it's a crime to start with a rifle and end up with "a weapon as modified [that] has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length".

However, my reading of the law and current ATF guidance* indicate that's it's perfectly lawful to start with a pistol receiver and assemble it into a rifle, PROVIDED that the actor does not create a SBR at some point in the process. This includes using a bare receiver that was first assembled into a pistol.

*Taking 44 AMP's post #18 into account. :rolleyes:
Armorer-at-Law said:
Lobby Congress to change the law or mount a well-reasoned challenge to the law in court.
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This thread yet again demonstrates that current U.S. firearms laws were not written with the concept of modular firearms in mind.

Unfortunately, given that most modular firearms are of the EBR variety, I don't foresee the laws changing positively in this regard. :(
 
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Although interesting discussion for someone legal minded like myself, I may wait on the PTR/HK model gun until later in my college studies. It's a little bit more of a difficult build than some others on the market. By the time I'm 21, I'll have been through some courses on welding and machining and I'll be hitting the point in classes where we have 100 hours of "specialty" education where we can choose any area of specialization or any project to work on with help from the instructors.

So, although it doesn't sate my need for pontification and perfect legal knowledge, it probably bypasses those issues if I just go with an 80% that I have the ability to legally turn into a rifle without help from an FFL. That would make it a moot point.

Thanks for the discussion though.
 
There's a lot of gunsmithing to be learned before I'd waste my time on a receiver blank.

Think about it. As a gunsmith, you will get to make ONE of these, for yourself. You will never make a dime turning them out for customers, and ATF won't let you share the tooling.

You're going to be money ahead by doing something else. I wouldn't even use my 100 specialty hours for it, it's a personal project that will gain me nothing beyond a PTR91. If I still wanted to do it when the time comes up later, I'd use my personal time outside of my specialty hours.
 
Question for the Lawyers

Disclaimer: I'm not a Lawyer.

That being said, if the receiver was shipped to the gun smithing school (FFL), then he worked on it at school, but did not take possession of it until it was a completed rifle, would that work?

I don't think there is any law against someone under 21 working/handling a pistol or "other" weapon prior coming of age.
 
Kilimanjaro, thanks for your opinion. It is something to consider. I do want to go into production work versus small custom builds, and there are sveral companies (including PTR themselves who are not too far from the school in South Carolina) who import and re-build rifles such as that, where I thought demonstrating proficiency putting one together might be something I could use as a resume of sorts. That's why we build our .30-06 bolt action for the end of class project.
 
That being said, if the receiver was shipped to the gun smithing school (FFL), then he worked on it at school, but did not take possession of it until it was a completed rifle, would that work?
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That would still be considered manufacturing.
 
Just to clarify, a receiver that is already considered a firearm would still be considered manufacturing to turn from an "other" into a rifle?
 
From what I understand from your posts . This receiver will have a serial number from the start , yes ?? When you buy the receiver and the initial paper work is done . Why can't you just have them designate the receiver as a long gun ? It should from that point forward be a rifle , Yes ???
 
Metal god said:
Why can't you just have them designate the receiver as a long gun ?
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Because it's not -- it's a bare receiver.

IMHO an FFL would have to be crazy to process a transfer for a bare receiver as a rifle. Suppose the transferee then goes home and builds it into a pistol or an SBR? The FFL would be screwed.
 
IMHO an FFL would have to be crazy to process a transfer for a bare receiver as a rifle. Suppose the transferee then goes home and builds it into a pistol or an SBR? The FFL would be screwed.
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Not here in CA . All AR lowers are sold as long guns . If the owner were to put a SBR upper or pistol upper on the lower . He would be in big trouble . The store that sold that complete or stripped lower has no liability . When the firearm was transferred and handed to the new owner it complied with all laws . What the owner did with the rifle after he left the store is completely out of the FFL dealer's hands . I'm sure many have tried to sue for things like that but I don't see a case .
 
Federal law and determination on rifles contradicts when it's convenient.

For instance, a stripped Mauser receiver pulled from a once complete Mauser is a rifle. According to ATF, once it is a rifle, it is always a rifle and can not be built into a pistol. Putting a short barrel on it results in an SBR instead of a pistol.

However, try to buy that same receiver and it's an "other" firearm, not a long gun, so must be marked as other. It cannot be marked as a rifle on the form.

That's all my current understanding anyways. I'm always learning and I've been wrong before.
 
The problem is I am 19, soon to be 20, and can't take possession of an "other firearm" from an FFL.
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I have to assume that is because you can build an "other" into a pistol/handgun and you must be 21 to buy a pistol/handgun .

For instance, a stripped Mauser receiver pulled from a once complete Mauser is a rifle. According to ATF, once it is a rifle, it is always a rifle and can not be built into a pistol. Putting a short barrel on it results in an SBR instead of a pistol.
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That is exactly my point ;). If you are going to build a rifle from this "other" stripped receiver and have to at some point document/designate it as a rifle . Why not do that right from the get go ? That way it starts out as a rifle and can't be changed . Now everywhere you go and everything you do with the receiver will be done as a rifle and all laws pertaining to rifles will apply .

I'm not saying that is law . Only that it seems reasonable . Now outside of CA maybe you can't register a receiver that has been assigned the "other" designation into a long gun all that easy . Here in CA It's really that simple . I've bought quite a few stripped lowers here in CA and they all were bought as long guns even though I can just as easy make them a pistol or SBR . I wouldn't , just saying . They were all bought as long guns and MUST be built as such .

I hope one of are FFL guys here can clarify this because as much as I feel what I'm saying is accurate . I really don't know all the Fed laws that address this issue .

EDIT:

Here in CA It's really that simple . I've bought quite a few stripped lowers here in CA and they all were bought as long guns
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I just got to thinking that maybe the manufacture of the stripped lowers being shipped to CA designate them as long guns when serialized so they were NEVER anything but a long gun . This is where my knowledge on the issue starts to suffer . I'd always been told I must DROS the stripped lower here in CA as a long gun but was never told why . It could be that the manufacturer had already designated it as a long gun .
 
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You can't just designate a lower as a rifle because it doesn't have a rifled barrel of 16" or more and isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder. It can't be a rifle until it physically meets that criteria - or at least that's how I understand it.

The receiver age being 21 is often said it's because you can make a pistol out of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with that. The age to purchase a gun from an FFL used to be 21, but they lowered it for long guns. Anything that wasn't a long gun remained at 21
 
I just started my DROS on this stripped lower last week . This is a pic of a copy of the DROS paper work . Again as my EDIT above states I'm not sure if the manufacturer designated the receiver as a long gun before shipping to CA . I do know that I own one ;) stripped lower that is still stripped and is considered by law a rifle .
qBYmNh.jpg
 
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The receiver age being 21 is often said it's because you can make a pistol out of it, but I don't think it has anything to do with that.
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It doesn't. The ATF clarified this in 2009:

(...) firearm frames, receivers, and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under 21 years of age.
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This clarified § 922(b)(1), which states:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
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Prior to that, it was common practice to mark receivers as "rifles" and sell them to people under 21.

Metal God, you might want to check with your dealer. I'm not sure about California law, but under federal law, that is *not* a rifle.
 
firearm frames, receivers, and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns) are considered “Other Firearms.” They cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person under 21 years of age.
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I'm not sure about California law, but under federal law, that is *not* a rifle.
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I should add that here in CA you can not buy a stripped lower if you are under 21 . I just figured that was a left coast CA thing .

Is this just an age thing as for what the receivers designation is and when a person can buy it or is it flat out unlawful to designate a stripped receiver a long gun until the total length of the receiver and all parts connected to it is 30" or more ??

EDIT:

I was just informed that the CA DROS system only has two options for type of firearm - handgun and long gun . The "other designation does not exist in the CA system .

That to me does not sound right . How can a state just say ( well we don't want to put a third designation in are system so we don't recognize the Federal "other" requirement ) . Or is the "other" designation under Federal law an interpretation of the law and not actual written text in the law .
 
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Metal god said:
That to me does not sound right . How can a state just say ( well we don't want to put a third designation in are system so we don't recognize the Federal "other" requirement )
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I was wondering the same thing.
 
Metal god, it appears that the document you showed us is a CA-specific document. What does the 4473 for that same receiver call it? What I get out of your thread on Calguns is that there's a disconnect between the federal 4473 and the CA DROS form.
 
I should add that here in CA you can not buy a stripped lower if you are under 21
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That's actually in line with federal law.

I was just informed that the CA DROS system only has two options for type of firearm - handgun and long gun . The "other designation does not exist in the CA system .
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Gene and some other folks on Calguns should be able to provide exact answers. It is odd that California law conflicts with federal law that way.
 
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