Reasonable expectations for a "decent group" - 9mm military at 25 meters?

Well, as long as we're talking technique, I'll chime in with 2 more very common issues…

…first, do not peek at the target between shots! This is very common and bad habit, and a real accuracy killer. Just get a good sight picture, and under no particular time constraints, take 5 of your very best shots, without having to adjust your grip, and while keeping your focus locked on the front sight at all times. No peeking! You can look at the target afterward (and it ought to tell you what you already know ;)).

…secondly, don't "time" your shots. In other words, don't try pulling the trigger at the instant you see the front sight passing the center of the target. For one thing, by the time the shot breaks, your front sight won't be at the center of the target. More importantly, when you time the shot, you will most certainly yank! that trigger. Formal target shooters uniformly will tell you timing the shot is a fool's errand. If your wobble zone is within, say, the black, your shots will land in the black if your shot release is true. This is best you can do. With practice, your wobble will improve, and you'll trust your wobble enough to not yank the trigger.

I do agree with JohnKSa, though, that 3" from the bench at 10 meters isn't very encouraging. I'd be curious to hear how your Sig groups. In the meantime, I'd work on your fundamentals with your Model 41.
 
Thank you so much for these comments! Very useful!!
I'll print this and other replies and take them to the range :))
 
Shooting from the bench with a pistol is not as easy as it sounds and there are some gotchas.

Shooting from a rest with a pistol.

To do it right, you need to get the rest high enough so that you can hold your head normally while shooting. If you have a some sort of arrangement that you can use while standing that's great. Otherwise, you need a chair or a stool to bring yourself down to the level of the bench.

A rest can be something as simple as a folded towel for you to rest your hands on while shooting, or something more involved like a 'V' or 'Y' shaped stand to rest the barrel/frame of the gun on. If you have a stand to rest the gun on, you need some sort of padding between the gun and the stand. I've done some pretty good rifle shooting using a cardboard box for the rest and a coil of rope as the padding. But resting any part of the gun against a hard surface will make it very difficult to get good results. The gun will bounce away from the surface when it fires and accuracy will be inconsistent.

Get settled into position and get comfortable. If you're strained, adjust something until you are comfortable. Don't lean down or hunch over to get your head aligned with the sights when the gun is on the rest, rather, bring the rest upwards until your back & neck are in a normal and comfortable position.

When things are right, you should be in a comfortable, natural feeling position that doesn't strain anything and the sights of the pistol should be steadily aligned on the target. Now it's just a matter of focusing on the front sight and pulling the trigger straight back smoothly. You can mumble "front sight...front sight" to yourself over and over while you're squeezing the trigger straight back.

Anyone with a couple of folding chairs, some boxes, a towel and a very little ingenuity should be able "create" a perfectly functional setup to shoot a pistol from a rest.
 
Ahh Ok.
I just did some more bench work last night with 2 differences:
1. I was hunched down rather than standing straight (bench should go up 3-4 inches)
2. I rested the butt of the pistol, not the barrel, on the padded rest.
I did notice, the gun bounces away anyway when firing.
Results were "not great :( "
I'm using Fiocchi 115 gr. Luger 9 mm FMJRN.

I wonder if even this load is too much. The recoil is quite strong...
Subsonics have a flat nose- the P08 doesn't feed these short rounds very well. (No problem in the P38)

I'm waiting for this Sig p210-6 to come through.... although my technique clearly needs work.
I really wonder- what influence does recoil have on a group .... of everything else is right??-
Consistent grip, straight trigger pull, light trigger, sight picture, ammo load and and....
The round is long gone when recoil begins isn't it?
 
You're going to get some bounce, but if the gun is resting against a padded surface it shouldn't affect accuracy. It's when it's on a hard surface that the problems show up.
I really wonder- what influence does recoil have on a group .... of everything else is right??-
Click to expand...
Recoil affects the point of impact to some extent (though the effect is much smaller in most autopistols than in revolvers) but it doesn't really affect the group size (accuracy), other than by the effects it has on the shooter.
The round is long gone when recoil begins isn't it?
Click to expand...
Recoil begins the instant that the bullet begins to move. As soon as the bullet starts moving, Newton's laws of motion require that the gun (or at least part of the gun) must begin moving as well and the motion of the gun is recoil.

Here's a video of various firearms being fired in super slow-motion. At about 29 seconds into the video there is one place where it is possible to see the slide move before the bullet exits the barrel. At 1:35 there's a better shot where it's very obvious that the slide and barrel are recoiling well before the bullet leaves the barrel.

https://youtu.be/HElQk2wEY5w

But it does happen very fast and therefore its effect tends to be very consistent. The reason people tend to be less accurate with heavy recoiling guns is because it's harder to focus on shooting and not anticipate the shot/flinch when you know you're going to get whacked by heavy recoil when the gun goes off.

I'm not sure what to think about your comments that the recoil is strong. Normally a full-sized 9mm pistol would be considered to have light recoil. I'm thinking it might be time to have another experienced shooter try the gun.
 
I'd agree with JohnKSa. Perceived recoil may happen after the bullet leaves the barrel, but actual recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moving. At any rate, recoil shouldn't affect group size, as recoil itself (and hence muzzle movement during recoil) should be consistent from shot to shot.

You mentioned several times that recoil is significant. As mentioned, relative to other centerfire handguns, a serviced-sized 9mm should have pretty mild recoil. Relative to your M41 .22LR, it'll be stronger, of course, so I suspect you're comparing recoil to your M41. Nonetheless, recoil affects accuracy only via the shooter, i.e. a flinch. If you're flinching, try simply shooting into the berm or a blank target to get accustomed to the blast & recoil of your 9mm. Once your mind gets used to the idea that the blast & recoil won't hurt you, you'll begin to flinch less.
 
Hi Mr. Borland, JohnKSa
Thanks for your comments!
I'm comparing recoil to other 9 mm pistols I have fired rather than to that of the 41.
Just last night I tried S&B 124 gr 9 mm in a Beretta- recoil was definitely lighter. Could be that particular gun as well. Perhaps the 115 gr Fiocchi is too much. I find the recoil annoying to say the least. Shot a very close group of 3 at 10 m with the S&B, 2 flyers... I think most of it lies with me. But that's good! (In the short run)
Thanks for your time and interest :)
Interesting slow motion site!!
 
A decent group fired one handed unsupported at 25 yards.....well the NRA 25 yard slow fire target B16 (and the timed and rapid fire targets B8) have a bull that is a bit over five inches wide. If you can keep all of your shots in the black, you are doing a good job.
 
just stick with S&B 124gn. Its about the cheapest cheap ammo you can buy in our cold froggycountry and tbh its pretty decent stuff these days. :)

if you want to learn how to shoot, just keep practising, same as with writing, first slow and precise, then speed up.

I think you mean to compete in the discipline, Militair Pistool? You dont have to worry to much about the time tbh, even the last stage of 6 shots in 9 seconds over 3 targets is plenty of time.
Let the recoil do its thing, dont fight it. If your stance is good, your sights will pretty much drop back on target, while you drop back on target get rid of the slack in the trigger, compensate where needed and execute a controlled squeeze on the trigger :)

and imagine you have no thumb and pinky, that way you can always find your good one handed grip ;)
 
Thank you Glock 17 :)
Sounds good! Yes I mean to compete in "Militair Pistool" I have an interest in WWI and WWII firearms... they are a challenge to shoot- and they are not built to be target pistols.
I have also just acquired a Canik 55 Stingray... I've already taken it once to the range- results were pretty good! (for me).

I have just switched to S&B 124 gr. - You're right- This seems to be very good ammo and the price is alot better than many other 9 mm alternatives out there.

Thanks for your tips... I will keep them in mind.
Cheers,
RShaw
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top