Reason for concern?

P

Pond James Pond

New member
Any time I carry, it is a 6-shot .38 snub.

After to-ing and fro-ing, I finally opted for 147 gr WC rounds.

Low recoil, accurate, wide meplat.

I'm glad to say that I've never needed and so the same 6 rounds go into the cylinder and come out again every time I go out. It stays unloaded at home. Firstly because of the kids and secondly the legalities of weapons kept at home.

All that is irrelevant to the discussion beyond explaining how and why the cases leave and enter the gun so often.

As I unloaded today, one fell on the floor which is cork, so not hard. I pickedit up and noticed that the bullet was a little recessed in the mouth. I looked at the other cartridges: so was another one and a third was actually pushed out a bit, but loose enough that I could easily push it back flush with the case mouth with mild pressure from my thumb...

So this made me think of two things: the importance of a firm grip on the bullet in the case and that of COAL.

What would you do with these?
 
Ammo should always be rotated on a regular basis !!
if you see bullets pushed back a great amount then disgard it.
If you reload then increase the crimp and reduce the expander diameter.
 
James, replace that ammunition IMMEDIATELY! ALL OF IT!

I'm aware of the difficult supply situation where you are, but get something else to use for carry ammo. ANYTHING else!!

#1) it is the WRONG ammo for defensive use
#2) the ammo you have appears to be CRAP!

Low recoil, accurate, wide meplat.
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Yes, low recoil, because it is a light load intended for target shooting

Accurate: again because its a light load intended for target shooting, and uses a soft lead bullet (full wadcutter = lead cylinder) with a large bearing area to engage the rifling.

Wide meplat: yes, in order to cut a nice, clean, full caliber hole in a paper target. NOT for energy transmission, although it does that well, the round has very little energy to start with.

.38 Special wadcutters are target ammo. The slugs are soft lead, either pure lead or a soft alloy. They are loaded lighter than standard ammo (one of my books says 770fps, and that from a 6" barrel, you are getting less from your snubnose, maybe not even 700fps)

Most of us would consider the .38 Spl wadcutter load to have inadequate penetration for defensive use. Make no mistake, it IS LETHAL, WHEN the bullet reaches a vital spot. However is it not powerful enough to RELIABLY reach a vital spot under all possible conditions. Nor, was it ever made to be.

All this applies to .38Spl wadcutter ammo, in general. Your specific rounds are something else again.

ANYTIME you can move a bullet in a case with just your fingers, the round is substandard, and should not be considered for any serious use.

The rounds you are telling us about were not loosened from the recoil of firing other round, right? The ONLY stresses have been loading/unloading the cylinder and being carried, right?

NONE of those bullets should have moved (in any direction) and NONE of them should be moveable with finger pressure. Since they have, this indicates improper case neck tension, and/or inadequate crimp.

Note that while it is "target" ammo, and may have the word "match" on the box, not all the .38 WC stuff is loaded with the kind of precision we would expect from "match" ammo. Some of it is the cheapest crap that goes bang.

If you have other rounds from the same box, check them to see if their bullets are loose, or have moved...

Shoot them up on the range, and replace them with something suitable.

And do some more "to-ing and fro-ing" on your choice of defensive ammo. Even the old sneered at 158gr LRN @850fps is a superior choice over the target WC ammo. You don't need to try to turn your .38 snub into a .357, its not advisable to try, and if your gun is not rated for .38+p, don't use it. But at least get and carry something that is full power .38 Special.

Good Luck!
 
147 grain WC's are usually target loads that need no crimp. A crimp is bad in target ammo. However, if the bullet moves just from dropping the thing it's not loaded correctly.
You don't need to pull 'em just for that though. Shoot it and replace it.
A WC will expand dramatically upon impact with just about anything, but doesn't necessarily penetrate much.
 
Yessir, to the above recommendations.
Ammo intended for the range and target shooting are not designed for carry and defense.
Best get something else for that.
 
Most of us would consider the .38 Spl wadcutter load to have inadequate penetration for defensive use. Make no mistake, it IS LETHAL, WHEN the bullet reaches a vital spot. However is it not powerful enough to RELIABLY reach a vital spot under all possible conditions. Nor, was it ever made to be.
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Those damnable armchair experts on TFL!! :D

As it happens I only went LWC 'cause a thread on the subject about 2 years ago left the WC as the recommended round due to the cutting edges!! ;)

TBH, I only went back the WCs about 6 months back. Before then I was on SJSPs, 158gr so I'm back on those now.

The other WCs are firm as you like, but those that have been in and out of the revolver, they are not so secure so I'll ditch them. I'll keep the bullets as lead stock in case I ever get around to casting, I'll keep the primed cases, resized and use them for some plinking plated bullets.

Good to find out now that they are not up to the job rather than in a tight spot!!
 
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As it happens I only went WC cause a thread on the subject about 2 years ago left the WC as the recommended round due to the cutting edges!
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One thing that I was wondering: is hollowpoint ammunition legal and/or available in your country? If not, a lead semi-wadcutter load is a good secondary choice.
 
Are you sure your bullets are 147 grain? Over here we have factory 148 hollow based wadcutters. I load both Hornady and Remington 148 grain HBWC to factory target specs. For what it is worth, I have dispatched more varmints with my wadcutters than any other .38 load.
 
I have known a couple of knowledgeable professionals who carried factory wadcutters loaded backward with hefty charges. The expansion is huge. I never did that (my "pro" carrying did not allow carrying my own ammo), but I have often thought it might be just what would be needed at short range (under 50 feet).

Jim
 
One thing that I was wondering: is hollowpoint ammunition legal and/or available in your country? If not, a lead semi-wadcutter load is a good secondary choice.
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No, it isn't. Not in SD calibres, only hunting ones. Even then, I think most are SP rounds.

I've looked for SWCs: none on sale and there is a grey area over handloading and SD circumstances that I don't wish to explore as a pioneering defendant!! :D

Are you sure your bullets are 147 grain?
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Pretty sure: brand is S&B.
 
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A 1 grain difference in the listed weight of the bullets is of no concern.

James, contact S&B, and tell them what happened with their ammo after you just carried it for a while.

Reputable ammo makers try hard to make sure they make a quality product. They also know that they can't catch everything all the time. Letting them know something went wrong gives them something to look at to see if it needs fixing. If you don't tell them, they'll never know, and things don't get fixed.

In the US, when a customer reports a problem like that, often the ammo companies respond with something for your trouble. Like, replacement ammo...

I don't see where you have anything to lose...and you might just get something from it.

Good Luck!
 
WC

There are at least two videos on the Tube that show WC ammo, (one instance from a Ruger snubby w/ a velocity sub 700 fps) and the slugs pass completely through an 18" block of ballistic gel, very stable, no tumbling, they just plow on.

WC do not posses the attributes of good SD ammo in regards to wound channels, energy transfer, that sort of thing. But I suspect their square blunt shape, and low velocity, adds to their stability and thus ability to penetrate in straight lines, more so than LRN or FMJ, for example. FMJ/ LRN is well know for its deplorable stopping record as well, for that matter. They also have a reputation of wandering off line and ending up odd places, and skirting hard surfaces, like major bone. If I had to choose between the three, it would be WC's. Mild shooting, low flash and noise, they can tame a snub for petite shooters, which may be their sole attribute.

Their certainly are better loads for a .38 snub than WC, but I am surprised by their performance in gel tests regards penetration and consistency.
 
James, contact S&B, and tell them what happened with their ammo after you just carried it for a while.
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I may well do. I will say this, though. The SJSPs (which were carried for a while too) are solid as are the speed-strip of WC I also carried. However, they never got loaded into the gun: Always the same 6 rounds.

OK. Thanks for the input. I'll have a look at the videos too.

I may pull them down and reseat them, but first I'll see what S&B may have to say, but getting companies to act when they are in different countries is hard because anything connected with the bang-i-ness of guns is draped in red-tape over here!
 
Any chance all that in and out and being jostled around loose outside the chambers every night opened up the brass a bit on those rounds? Brass cases aren't real thick and brass isn't that tough to start. Just seems like all that handling would almost certainly loosen it up no matter how tight a crimp one the was from the factory.
 
I typically cycle my carry ammo via shooting it every few months. I think it's good practice, even with better-constructed ammo. I've never experienced what you're sharing here but that would absolutely scare me off a brand.

Given what you've been using, you might as well just use jacketed flat-points. Yes, hollow-points would probably be better for defensive purposes. Yes, you'll get more reliable expansion with +p ammo. Yes, there are reasons you might not want or be able to go with those options. Personally, I shoot a lot of inexpensive jacketed flat-points at paper, cans, plastic bottles, etc. I put those same inexpensive jacketed flat-points in my alloy snubs. They have low recoil. I know how they behave. I don't worry about adequate expansion from a short barrel. They seem to be durably constructed. Of course, those 158-grain SJSPs should do the trick too. :)

I should mention that I rarely carry a .38 special anymore. The .327 has revolutionized my revolver carry with low recoil, reasonable power, and no question about reliable expansion.
 
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