Realistic grouping expectations

T

TheDutchman19

New member
So what size groups can you realistically expect from your rifle?

Here is the senero: Factory target rifle with upgraded factory trigger, longer factory bull barrel and pillar bedded action. Action and scope mounts, torqued to the appropriate in-lbs. After market muzzle brake and a high quality scope also installed.

The ammo is 308 hand loads, worked up to the right recipe for the rifle. Top shelf components used: match grade bullets, match primers and good quality brass that is annealed when needed.

Lets assume the rifle and the ammo are all up to par. Also lets keep the manufactures names off of the parts (that is a different discussion), and we will assume it all came from one of the top five companies.

So what should a realistic expectation of group size be?
 
I have never seen such a precisely vague question in my life.

when I work up loads there is always a trade off between fastest, heaviest and most accurate and I have to try to get the best mix of all three. I don't shoot for the sole purpose of hitting paper so an FMJ target load which is picked for best accuracy over best hunting performance is kindof nonsensical for someone in my position.

then I see the words market done this, market bought that, factory configured this, factory upgrade that, factory glass... WHO MADE IT?!!! you can take the best factory configured mosin nagant 91/30 in the world and it will not compare to a bench rest rifle from a reputable maker today. there is a big difference between factory remington and factory ruger accuracy. I can't begin to answer this question.
 
For what it is worth, I am new (3 years) to the whole thing. Shooting, reloading and performance expectations is a new concept for most people just entering the sport. Ask any newbie what they want or expect out of the rifle. You will most likely get an unrealistic answer.

There is a lot of available info to be had in order to improve our skills. The input from the experienced folks on this forum and others like it, help new guys (like me) push through their frustrations. I got my "factory rifle" to that sub 0.5 MOA goal at 100 & 200 yds, but I ultimately did not have a realistic idea of what to expect. Today I think my weak link in my program is the shooter, but I keep trying.
 
The goal of most benchrest shooters using top end equipment is groups in the .1's. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. With good stuff, I'd think .5's should be pretty realistic.
 
0.5 MOA to 1.0 MOA.

Anything less than 0.5 MOA would be gravy, but factory barrels married to 308 Win rarely shoot less than 0.5 MOA, even with handloads.

That is my experience anyways, I hope yours is better.

Jimro
 
Winchester's Model 70 Target Rifles in .308 Win would shoot M118 match ammo into sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards easily. And Remington's 40X in .308 Win was tested to average 1/4 MOA at 100 yards to meet factory specs. But these were what happened in the 1970's. And some folks won't call these "factory" rifles.

Based on their performance in competition, I'd think Savage's better target rifles in .308 Win would shoot 1/2 MOA and maybe better with Federal's or Black Hills' best match ammo, so anyone putting ammo together with new components as good as their stuff could easily equal what it does. And that's easy to do.

Depending on what objectives and conditions accuracy was evaluated at, there'll be a wide range of numbers defining the rifle and its ammo accuracy level. Just like the wide range of accuracy a given factory barrel type and caliber will have across all of them.

And the shooter is the greatest variable in the system's accuracy when they're holding onto the rifle and shooting it.
 
I'd say if you can't get under 1 MOA at 100 under reasonable conditions with just about any reasonable number of shots (5,10,20) you've got a shooter problem. Anything under 1/2MOA, my first guess is too small of sample size unless the shooter is excellent. So, my expectation would be 3/4 MOA at 100 give or take 1/4.
 
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I spent a goodly number of years in the learning process about creating a tight-group ability: Tweaking a rifle's bedding. Messing around with different components in loading and different powder charges as well as things like seating depth and distance from the lands.

At the same time, I worked on me. How to not goof for sight picture, but to be consistent about where the "perfect" sight picture was for each shot. Holding the rifle the same way in the same position on the bags for each shot. Then I learned about pressing the trigger between heartbeats and tried to anticipate the perfect sight picture in the 0.2 second lag between telling my trigger finger to move and its actual movement (NOT easy).

All the while knowing that anything under two MOA was plenty good for 98% of the deer I ever ate. :D
 
Given my shooting skill and failing eye sight, here are my standard for good rifles.

1. Iron sight: 2 MOA.

2. Scope: 1 MOA.

Anything better than that will make me happy for a few days at most, as I will realize quickly that it is sheer dumb luck.

-TL
 
By comparison, I was able to shoot this 3-shot group with 147gr NATO surplus
ball ammo from 100 yards using an Aimpoint Comp M4s with a 2 MOA red dot.

Three shots covered by a Nickel.

1471134_757172694299921_1256848056_n.jpg


Nothing about the rifle screams precision.
The accuracy is consistent & repeatable.

1376557_732759306741260_376232408_n.jpg



Before you get your panties in a bind, 3 shot groups are battle rifle acceptable.
 
Heh. A few three-shot groups tell a hunter pretty much all he needs to know about new handloads or at sight-in time.

On a new-to-me rifle, I like to shoot a few five-shot groups to get a reasonable idea for how well the rifle does, overall. After that, "threesies". :)
 
With my Savage 110 .243 I use Winchester loads with a $60 scope, can't think who makes it right now, and if I can get it within a few inches at 100 yards with a cold gun I'm happy with it. If it gets warm the grouping gets pretty big. Free handed and open sights, I expect to hit a gallon jug at 100 yards with any rifle.
 
So what should a realistic expectation of group size be?
Click to expand...

If you are me, you should expect about a one inch group if you exclude the one flier that seems to make it into every group I shoot.

I have experienced this with so many different rifles that I think it is a focus problem with me, and not a mechanical limit in the rifle itself.
 
I think that the standard guarantee nowadays for a new rifle is 1MOA out of box, so I think 1 MOA is about what you should expect.
 
My plain-jane 243 with plain-jane 100 grain soft points will make a 1 inch, 5 shot group at 100 yards when shooting off of a sandbag... as long as I don't pull a shot. With some practice, I can get to the point where I only screw up about 1 out of 10 shots. I really respect some of the shooters I see who never seem to pull a shot.

But honestly, I am not trying that hard. I love to shoot, but trying to squeeze that last bit of 1/2 MOA accuracy seems like a chore to me. I much prefer shooting from various positions like sitting, kneeling, and standing. I would rather shoot a quick 2 inch group, than a slow methodical 1/2 inch group... It is a question of fun.
 
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