One can grab the slide of an semi-auto pistol all one wants. It will still fire. It just won't cycle. The "bad" thing is that it's not a violent thing (holding the slide while someone fires the pistol) so it may not induce the guy to let go. However, someone who is in front of you grabs the slide simply pull towards yourself as you take a step back and, "Voila!" they are in alignment more or less with the muzzle. Let 'em have it.
Real World Self Defense: Snubbie 1st, Mid-Sized Auto 2nd (If Necessary)
- Thread starter Apprentice_941
- Start date
The trick with a semi is to (if one is gutsy/desperate/nuts enough to try) shove against the muzzle as one grabs the slide, hard. By pushing back, the lockwork is disconnected as the slide is pushed out of battery, and the hard grip is to prevent the slide from returning to battery.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The book is Randall Collins: Violence: A Micro-sociological Theory - 2008
Princeton University Press.
Really is a good read for folks interested in the issues.
It's in there.
Only 562 pages - maybe I can summarize later but I'm in the midst of a big project and just goof off on TFL to clear brain.
Princeton University Press.
Really is a good read for folks interested in the issues.
It's in there.
Only 562 pages - maybe I can summarize later but I'm in the midst of a big project and just goof off on TFL to clear brain.
I agree with the post, that stated whatever works for you!!!!!
I recommend however and whatever you are going to carry, that you practice several times a month drawing and firing against simulated real life experiences.(like at IDPA matches)
For some drawing from the pocket may be faster and for others from the waist might be...I know that I practice drawing my XD-45 from my inside the waist band several times a month and can get it out faster than my kel tec PF-9 and once out I can shoot from retention with my XD-45 and have 14 rounds to do it with.
It really comes down to being willing to practicing real life situations, not just standing there shooting at hanging targets.
I recommend however and whatever you are going to carry, that you practice several times a month drawing and firing against simulated real life experiences.(like at IDPA matches)
For some drawing from the pocket may be faster and for others from the waist might be...I know that I practice drawing my XD-45 from my inside the waist band several times a month and can get it out faster than my kel tec PF-9 and once out I can shoot from retention with my XD-45 and have 14 rounds to do it with.
It really comes down to being willing to practicing real life situations, not just standing there shooting at hanging targets.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Ok - Collins proposed that initiating violence against another is very hard due to built in inhibitions in most of us. Same thing that Grossman reviews. Granted there is some controversy over SLA Marshall's analysis but Collins looks at new data to say the basic idea stands up with troops reluctant to fire.
One has to overcome this reluctance. One component of that is to achieve a sense of emotional dominance over the opponent If that occurs, it is easier to initiate violence.
In some large group attack situations, the group achieves the dominance and that disinhibits their reluctance to attack. The victim folds and flees or ends up in the fetal position to reduce appearance of threat and minimize damage.
He documents that even armed personnel fall victim to this and if dominated don't use their firearms and can get beat up by unarmed groups.
I've seen folks in FOF unable to fire with Sims against an aggressor and land up on the ground as they retreated. One such person was a 'martial' arts expert and just froze up. He could have shot the aggressor.
Of course, one can postulate this will not happen to you because we are mighty - it is an empirical question.
One has to overcome this reluctance. One component of that is to achieve a sense of emotional dominance over the opponent If that occurs, it is easier to initiate violence.
In some large group attack situations, the group achieves the dominance and that disinhibits their reluctance to attack. The victim folds and flees or ends up in the fetal position to reduce appearance of threat and minimize damage.
He documents that even armed personnel fall victim to this and if dominated don't use their firearms and can get beat up by unarmed groups.
I've seen folks in FOF unable to fire with Sims against an aggressor and land up on the ground as they retreated. One such person was a 'martial' arts expert and just froze up. He could have shot the aggressor.
Of course, one can postulate this will not happen to you because we are mighty - it is an empirical question.
Glen, I just read your "Academic Shooter" article; very good! Even as a "hard-core" conservative, my outlook on guns was pretty much the same as yours, until I was given cause to do some study on RKBA.
Now, I'm a hard-core right-wing gun nut*!
*"Nuts about guns," that is, not a "nut with a gun."
Now, I'm a hard-core right-wing gun nut*!
*"Nuts about guns," that is, not a "nut with a gun."
Apprentice_941
Inactive
"For the OP. You preparing for a bum rush by 5 or 6 men with a 5 shot revolver????? Hope they quit."
No, but my sister (I'm bachelor - and she's my only real family) would hard a hard time if she learned that I was mugged and seriously injured or killed and none of the assailants were hurt.
Basically, next time something like that goes down, I'll take five shots from my SW 642 and let the Lord take care of the rest.
And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.
When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went staright to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence - the gun turned out to be a shrouded 38+ S&W snubbie - although I was new to guns at the time.
I just think the pocket snubbie is a true self defense piece.
No, but my sister (I'm bachelor - and she's my only real family) would hard a hard time if she learned that I was mugged and seriously injured or killed and none of the assailants were hurt.
Basically, next time something like that goes down, I'll take five shots from my SW 642 and let the Lord take care of the rest.
And from my experience, the snubbie will - better than any gun - assure me that it's me who is the one shooting my gun, not the enemy who leveraged it out of my hands.
When I first went looking for a handgun in local gunstore- with the mugging fresh in my mind - I saw went staright to 1 gun that I felt confident I would have been able to overcome this group dominance fear (it was present in my case) and the short distances - and present a gun with confidence - the gun turned out to be a shrouded 38+ S&W snubbie - although I was new to guns at the time.
I just think the pocket snubbie is a true self defense piece.
Apprentice, I am taking part in this sort of discussion on a number of websites, and the snubbie is regularly the chosen gun. For one starting out, it its an excellent choice. Autos are out there, if you get the itch later on.
A snub is resting in my safe, so I have an option as well.
Again, GOOD CHOICE! Have fun with it too!
A snub is resting in my safe, so I have an option as well.
Again, GOOD CHOICE! Have fun with it too!
I have carried a Kahr PM9 for years ... like Alabama, Texas is hot a lot, and anything heavier than a tank top and shorts is really uncomfortable 6-8 months of the year ... When I can wear jeans and some kind of cover shirt, I carry the gun cross-draw in a Galco paddle holster ... I practice drawing from both every week ... IMHO, pocket carry is tops; it allows you to keep a hand on your gun at all times without attracting attention and even if you need both hands for something, it's right there with no shirt or jacket to clear out of the way ... That said, I just got a Kimber Ultra Carry II and it will be taking over daily carry duties except when I have to pocket carry ... then the Kahr slides into my pocket and I'm good to go ... another thing I don't know if anyone has mentioned ... you said you were attacked by 5-6 guys each time ... that leaves your snubbie one round short in both confrontations, assumes a quick one-shot fatality for each attacker and still leaves one guy unharmed to revenge his buddies ... unless you're a way better shot than I am, I'll take 7 shots in the Kahr, 8 in the Kimber ... do the math ...
You’ve been mugged twice by 5 or 6 and what you’ve learned is that a 5 shot snubby would be best????
My friend, even with a 100% 5/5 one shot stop and perfect accuracy (all VERY unlikely) you are still one round short.
Since, you mentioned the Lord, the Lord gave you a head, use it!
You didn’t notice the potential threat involving 5/6 guys until 4 or 5 yards were left??
Sorry but no, you are not being aware or observant and it’s obvious you need to work on that, probably the reason you got mugged twice by now.
I hope you don’t take offense in my comments.
I wouldn’t bet if I were you. Not with your life at least.
My chances look much better if I have 3 rounds per badguys, vs. going 1 ronud too short...
FerFAL
My friend, even with a 100% 5/5 one shot stop and perfect accuracy (all VERY unlikely) you are still one round short.
Since, you mentioned the Lord, the Lord gave you a head, use it!
You didn’t notice the potential threat involving 5/6 guys until 4 or 5 yards were left??
Sorry but no, you are not being aware or observant and it’s obvious you need to work on that, probably the reason you got mugged twice by now.
I hope you don’t take offense in my comments.
I wouldn’t bet if I were you. Not with your life at least.
My chances look much better if I have 3 rounds per badguys, vs. going 1 ronud too short...
FerFAL
I got out of my car this morning in Berkeley. 5 homeless guys came around the corner, and, before I could really get out of the car, were within a distance I did not feel comfortable about. I also then noticed one more sleeping on the church steps.
The guys saw my beat up old car, and, my ref shirt and said something like,
"Don't do them wrong."
I answered,
"I don't."
and they kept walking. All I had was some directional mace/pepper spray, that I had in my hand, in my pocket. Since I am aware of the danger of homeless people, since about 45% of the San Francisco reported crimes, and, investigated, but never taken to trial are homeless people, either as victim or attacker, I was a bit edgy about the entire encounter.
My point is, the person, OP, has a valid point, and, you can be taken aware, but at the oddest times, like 8 am, Sunday morning, and find yourself in a not so good situation.
I also wonder, if you shoot, or fire a gun, how likely the gang bangers are to stick around, and, that even though there might be 6, the real question is who wants to get shot third, fourth, or fifth?
I know the Hell's Angels have a code that if one Angel is jumped, all others must jump in, and fight to the death, if need be.
I wonder if other gangs have something similar, even including gun fights??
The guys saw my beat up old car, and, my ref shirt and said something like,
"Don't do them wrong."
I answered,
"I don't."
and they kept walking. All I had was some directional mace/pepper spray, that I had in my hand, in my pocket. Since I am aware of the danger of homeless people, since about 45% of the San Francisco reported crimes, and, investigated, but never taken to trial are homeless people, either as victim or attacker, I was a bit edgy about the entire encounter.
My point is, the person, OP, has a valid point, and, you can be taken aware, but at the oddest times, like 8 am, Sunday morning, and find yourself in a not so good situation.
I also wonder, if you shoot, or fire a gun, how likely the gang bangers are to stick around, and, that even though there might be 6, the real question is who wants to get shot third, fourth, or fifth?
I know the Hell's Angels have a code that if one Angel is jumped, all others must jump in, and fight to the death, if need be.
I wonder if other gangs have something similar, even including gun fights??
For the more violent Asian, Black and Hispanic gangs? Yes. And they may choose to retaliate later as well if you're successful on the first go around. The object is to be prepared to WIN by a landslide any encounter if you cannot avoid it. Relying on a 5 shot snub-nosed revolver will stop ME from laughing at you but it may only cause some goblin to whip out the Glock and start sending projectiles in your general direction. Not good.
The Angels are also famous for hunting down witnesses, and killing them, and their family.
I will say they tend to be pragmatic. In a fight started by a wannabe Hell's Angel's girlfriend, the wannabe just disappeared. Detectives figure he's been used for shark food...never found a trace of him.
Also, the victim did not testify, for fear of the above reprisal.
I will say they tend to be pragmatic. In a fight started by a wannabe Hell's Angel's girlfriend, the wannabe just disappeared. Detectives figure he's been used for shark food...never found a trace of him.
Also, the victim did not testify, for fear of the above reprisal.
OP you are well armed with that snubby. That said if you allow someone to get a grab on it you are in the same trouble as if it were a Glock. Your capacity is fine unless all 5-6 men are determined to kill you. At that point I feel you will lose no matter what tactics you use to aid your survival.
I will say this, if you retreat, 4-5 yards is allot of distance for your attackers to overcome while eating 38 specials. If that weapon held more ammo would it not be better? My point is with proper tactics they should never grab it. That eliminates the main, although questioned, reason for its choice.
The assumption that hostilities will cease at the sound or sight of gunfire is dangerous; a group of criminals rushing you may be on you, after all, by the time they process that one or two of them is shot. And one of the safest options for them at that time, given the situation, is to stay on you; hard on you.
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Interestingly enough, I've never heard of a debrief from a survivor of an attack involving gunfire complain about his gun's capacity from a "I had too many rounds" perspective; especially if the facts required a reload. The same cannot be said of the reverse.
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Interestingly enough, I've never heard of a debrief from a survivor of an attack involving gunfire complain about his gun's capacity from a "I had too many rounds" perspective; especially if the facts required a reload. The same cannot be said of the reverse.
Yep. One CANNOT retreat during an attack and they're MUCH better off to continue closing. And when you're speaking of gangs the more violent ones know this. AND several members will be armed. They may have been armed when they were rolling the OP but never felt the need to use it since they ha the upper hand.
A "snubbie" is a last ditch piece; always has and always will be. Those who think otherwise are fooling themselves.
A Glock 17 or 19/S&W M&P is better than any revolver. And unless you're as small as a broomstick you cannot ever convince me you cannot conceal it.
Okay, maybe if you wear shirts and pants that are spray-painted on, but if that's the case you have much bigger issues...
Bottom line: no matter what you have if you're not prepared to use it/not paying attention/not prepared to use it/poorly trained it doesn't matter.
Make all things equal the semi-auto pistol is the better weapon. I prefer the 1911 followed by the M&P and Glock 17. Other prefer others but as a reality check go IDPA and compare your scores to others who are classified similarly. Then unleash the ammo capacity issue and re-run it: 17 rounds beats 5 and a longer sight radius beats a shorter one and good defensive sights beats rudimentary ones.
I thought we all knew this by now...
A "snubbie" is a last ditch piece; always has and always will be. Those who think otherwise are fooling themselves.
A Glock 17 or 19/S&W M&P is better than any revolver. And unless you're as small as a broomstick you cannot ever convince me you cannot conceal it.
Okay, maybe if you wear shirts and pants that are spray-painted on, but if that's the case you have much bigger issues...Bottom line: no matter what you have if you're not prepared to use it/not paying attention/not prepared to use it/poorly trained it doesn't matter.
Make all things equal the semi-auto pistol is the better weapon. I prefer the 1911 followed by the M&P and Glock 17. Other prefer others but as a reality check go IDPA and compare your scores to others who are classified similarly. Then unleash the ammo capacity issue and re-run it: 17 rounds beats 5 and a longer sight radius beats a shorter one and good defensive sights beats rudimentary ones.
I thought we all knew this by now...