24 for velocity is my thinking also. http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html Barrel cut from 22" down to 10" with load and velocity datas.
Real world .223 barrel length advice required...
- Thread starter RigidCollision
- Start date
4runnerman
New member
I have posted this before and will again. The Swat team did a study on 223 barrel length from 16 inches to 22 inches. After a lot of testing they went with the 16 inch because all there testing showed no loss in accuracy at all. There was a loss in MV, but accuracy was the same all the way out to 600 yards which is as far as they tested it. So in the end the 16 inch won due to the fact that they said in a tight situation it was more maneuverable then longer barrels.
I tested virtually the same ammunition across three different AR actions with three different barrel lengths. You should be able to see that velocity really drops with shorter barrels. The same round out of a 20" barrel lost an average of 100 fps in the 16.5 inch barrel. This is a real problem at distance with the 223 as all that round has, is velocity.
For distances out to 600 yards I prefer my 24" barrel length on my match AR15. Something else that makes a difference is the Krieger barrel. Krieger barrels are tight so these high velocities were also producing high pressure. Loads that were smoking fast over the chronograph later popped primers in XTC matches. Since I don't have a pressure barrel, I have no idea what the pressures were, but I had to keep cutting my loads in the Kreiger barrel.
For distances out to 600 yards I prefer my 24" barrel length on my match AR15. Something else that makes a difference is the Krieger barrel. Krieger barrels are tight so these high velocities were also producing high pressure. Loads that were smoking fast over the chronograph later popped primers in XTC matches. Since I don't have a pressure barrel, I have no idea what the pressures were, but I had to keep cutting my loads in the Kreiger barrel.
Code:
[SIZE="3"][B]Armalite M15A2 Carbine
16.5" 1:9 Chrome Lined barrel[/B]
69 Sierra 24.5 grains AA2520 S&B cases WSR (Brass) OAL 2.25"
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F
Ave Vel =2643
Std Dev =34
ES = 158
Low = 2559
High = 2717
N = 25
very good groups
69 Sierra 24.5 grains AA2520 LC mixed cases WSR (Brass) OAL 2.25"
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F
Ave Vel =2629
Std Dev =34
ES = 92
Low = 2594
High = 2686
N = 10
good group but 3 pierced primers!
[B]M15A2 Armalite 20" 1:8 Stainless Wilson Barrel [/B]
69 gr Sierra Match 24.5 grs AA2520 wt'd WCC91, WSR, OAL 2.250"
11-Nov-97 T = 48 °F
Ave Vel =2754
Std Dev =43
ES = 191
Low = 2666
High = 2857
N = 15
69 gr Sierra Match 25 grs AA2520 wt'd WCC91, WSR, OAL 2.250"
11-Nov-97 T = 48 °F
Ave Vel =2818
Std Dev =14
ES = 44
Low = 2789
High = 2833
N = 10
69 gr Sierra Match 25.5 grs AA2520 wt'd WCC91, WSR, OAL 2.250"
11-Nov-97 T = 50 °F
Ave Vel =2887
Std Dev =14
ES = 44
Low = 2863
High = 2907
N = 10
[B]Compass Lake Flattop, 24" 1:8 Kreiger Barrel [/B]
69 Sierra 24.0 grains AA2520 LC mixed WSR (Brass) OAL 2.25"
2-Jul-04 T = 80° F
Ave Vel =2928
Std Dev =29
ES = 99
Low = 2861
High = 2960
N = 10
69 Nosler 24.0 grs AA2520 thrown lot 9595 WSR(nickle) LC86 OAL 2.25"
10-Jan-14 T = 49° F
Ave Vel =2829
Std Dev =65
ES = 177
Low = 2722
High = 2899
N = 5
excellent group
69 SMK 24.25 grs AA2520 thrown lot 9595 WSR(brass) LC90 OAL 2.25"
10-Jan-14 T = 49° F
Ave Vel =2817
Std Dev =22
ES = 71
Low = 2781
High = 2852
N = 18
69 Sierra 24.3 grains AA2520 LC mixed WSR (Brass) OAL 2.25"
22-Aug-03 T = 72° F
Ave Vel =2870
Std Dev =13
ES = 42
Low = 2845
High = 2887
N = 12
69 Sierra 25.0 grains AA2520 WCC91 WSR OAL 2.250"
21-Jan-03 T = 48°F
Ave Vel =2898
Std Dev =49
ES = 145
Low = 2821
High = 2966
N = 14
a few pierced primers[/SIZE]My Howa .223 has the 20" sporter barrel, not because thats what I wanted but thats what was on sale 
I absolutely love that rifle, with the 1:9" twist I have stretched 55 gr v-max bullets out to 650 yds on targets and taken coyotes out to 400 yds without a problem. If I had to do it over again I would get the 20" varmint barrel. I find that anything longer than 20" for me anyway adds more weight than than the velocity is worth. The 1:9 twist is more than adequate for every bullet weight I have tried.
It sounds like I am late to the party and you already got your setup ordered. Be sure to post an update and let us know how it does.
I absolutely love that rifle, with the 1:9" twist I have stretched 55 gr v-max bullets out to 650 yds on targets and taken coyotes out to 400 yds without a problem. If I had to do it over again I would get the 20" varmint barrel. I find that anything longer than 20" for me anyway adds more weight than than the velocity is worth. The 1:9 twist is more than adequate for every bullet weight I have tried.
It sounds like I am late to the party and you already got your setup ordered. Be sure to post an update and let us know how it does.
21.75" is the number. If you don't know why, Google "Houston warehouse". Here it is http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
flatland flyer
Inactive
Congrats on ordering the Howa 223. I've built several custom rifles based on these 1500 actions, and have had good experiences on the whole with them.
However, the last 223 Howa I put together (trued the action, chambered & fitted a 26" Bartlein 1-7.2tw in Rem varmint contour, bedded in Manners MSC-T stock, PTG Stealth DBM, EGW 20 MOA sloped scope rail) has cratered & pierced primers with all the heavy bullet loads I've tried in it. Granted, these were not pud loads, but had been fired in a couple of my other custom 223 rifles w/o exhibiting any signs of excess pressure. So, the bolt out of this Howa is getting sent off to have the boltface bushed & firing pin turned down to .060". This is the first out of about 10 Howa actions that's had this issue - hope it's the last one that needs the extra work.
Even with the primer issues, this rifle is shooting very well at 600yds with everything I've put through it so far - including JLK80VLD, S80MK, & Hornady 75 AMax. Really looking forward to getting the bolt back and doing more shooting with it. With the heavy bbl, the rifle's weight is 11.5lbs, and shooting it with a TBAC 30CB9 suppressor produces about as much recoil as a pellet rifle.
I've got one of the new Howa Mini actions in 222 Rem that I'm anxious to get stocked & shooting. These mini actions are cuter than a bug's ear - about the size of a Sako Vixen (L461) action, and are currently available in 222, 223, & 204 Ruger, with 6.5 Grendel & 7.62x39 versions coming this summer. Talk about your ideal action to build a light walking varmint rig on! Can hardly wait to get my hands on several of the 6.5 Grendel models when they come out - will undoubtedly keep one or two as Grendels, but am planning to chamber & fit custom bbls in 6 RAT and perhaps 6 PPC. Only downside currently is that the only factory stocks available that I'm aware of are the Hogue overmolded plastic ones. But if these little actions catch on like I think they will, there should be no shortage of custom stocks available before long.
However, the last 223 Howa I put together (trued the action, chambered & fitted a 26" Bartlein 1-7.2tw in Rem varmint contour, bedded in Manners MSC-T stock, PTG Stealth DBM, EGW 20 MOA sloped scope rail) has cratered & pierced primers with all the heavy bullet loads I've tried in it. Granted, these were not pud loads, but had been fired in a couple of my other custom 223 rifles w/o exhibiting any signs of excess pressure. So, the bolt out of this Howa is getting sent off to have the boltface bushed & firing pin turned down to .060". This is the first out of about 10 Howa actions that's had this issue - hope it's the last one that needs the extra work.
Even with the primer issues, this rifle is shooting very well at 600yds with everything I've put through it so far - including JLK80VLD, S80MK, & Hornady 75 AMax. Really looking forward to getting the bolt back and doing more shooting with it. With the heavy bbl, the rifle's weight is 11.5lbs, and shooting it with a TBAC 30CB9 suppressor produces about as much recoil as a pellet rifle.
I've got one of the new Howa Mini actions in 222 Rem that I'm anxious to get stocked & shooting. These mini actions are cuter than a bug's ear - about the size of a Sako Vixen (L461) action, and are currently available in 222, 223, & 204 Ruger, with 6.5 Grendel & 7.62x39 versions coming this summer. Talk about your ideal action to build a light walking varmint rig on! Can hardly wait to get my hands on several of the 6.5 Grendel models when they come out - will undoubtedly keep one or two as Grendels, but am planning to chamber & fit custom bbls in 6 RAT and perhaps 6 PPC. Only downside currently is that the only factory stocks available that I'm aware of are the Hogue overmolded plastic ones. But if these little actions catch on like I think they will, there should be no shortage of custom stocks available before long.
RigidCollision
Inactive
Thanks for the advice... This is my build!
This build is designed as a cost effective and accurate 'upgrade' from rim fire shooting to a center fire rifle for target shooting and the occasional varmint (fox) when required.
The action.
I have chosen a Howa 1500 barreled action in .223 with a 24" heavy varmint barrel (1:9 twist).
I looked at various manufacturers and options available and chose this combination for the following reasons: Howa has a good reputation for build quality and overall finish. If it's good enough for a high end vendor like Weatherby then I think it will be good enough for me. I looked at the standard Remington 700 offerings and decided that, although they have a great aftermarket spares selection, the recent problems with newer rifle quality made me cautious. I took in to consideration other makes such as Tikka and Savage. Being based in the UK I have greater support for Howa and Tikka than I do for Remington and Savage. It is getting increasingly difficult to find U.S. companies willing (or able) to export to the U.K. so choosing a brand with more European support makes sense.
Cost is a factor. Howa is a decent base for a rifle at a great price point. To seal the deal they offer barreled actions on their own. As I was going to be selecting a chassis system it seemed like a good idea. No point buying a stock if I was going to discard it. This lowered costs still further.
The caliber was an easy choice as .223 Remington is light on the shoulder, cheap(ish) to feed and easy to follow through on target without having a spotter. With target potential running into hundreds of meters if seemed like a no brainer for me. With accuracy and follow through in mind I went for the 24" heavy barrel action with a 1:9 twist which should allow all but the heaviest loads. Being a heavy barrel it promotes stability and limits felt recoil. It wouldn't be my first choice for a rifle if I were lugging it round all day, but for a target gun where weight is not my primary concern, no problem. In the future, if I want to lighten it, I have the option to shorten it, flute it etc.
I ordered my action from The Dorset Gun Company who were able to offer me a picatinny rail and a rifle case as part of a great deal on the barreled action. The Dorset Gun Company's pricing and service is second to none.
The Stock.
I decided on a chassis system for solidity, accuracy and the bonus is that they don't need bedding. I chose an MDT HS3 chassis system with an MDT adjustable skeleton stock, a Hogue rubber finger grooved pistol grip and some polymer ten round mags. MDT make stocks for a wide variety of actions, Howa being one of them. The modular design of their system means that I am able to swap out standard AR15 grips, stocks and magazines from other manufacturers in the future. If I do decide to change rifles in the future I can do without throwing the entire chassis.
I did look at other chassis systems for the Howa from other suppliers like GRS. Although their systems are seriously good and very adjustable I didn't want to be tied into one manufacturers proprietary system, especially given that the GRS base system is nearly twice the price of my total order from MDT (I ordered some extra mags and rails).
What really swayed me was that MDT will be releasing an HS3 stock for my CZ455 so I get to train with my rim fire with the same look and feel as my center fire. Another great bonus of using a chassis system with a Howa is that I get a magazine conversion 'for free'.
I chose my MDT kit in FDE rather than black. I was pleasantly surprised with the colour when I received it. FDE always seems to look very light when photographed but rest assured it is actually darker in tone and not the 'few shades darker than magnolia paint' that many photographs would have you believe.
I ordered direct from MDT in Canada and was impressed with the speed and efficiency of the whole process. Remember; the prices shown on the MDT site are in Canadian rather than U.S. Dollars. That is a huge difference in exchange rates.
The Scope.
I had a spare Weaver V24 x 40 scope which seemed just right for his job. I fell in love with the Weaver V16 x 40 some time ago for my rim fires as their parallax adjustment rages from just 25 feet right out to infinity, ideal for rim fire fun. Weaver parallax adjustment is accurate too. Just dial in and forget. Couple that with great optics and repeatable adjustment and I was sold. I order them from Natchez shooting supplies in the U.S. at around half the U.K. retail price (depending on the exchange rate). When the exchange rate was good I ordered in a couple of scopes for my friends and treated myself to the V24 'just in case'. I'm glad I did because it fits this latest build very well.
Scope Rings.
I used Burris Signature rings (#420521) for this build. I use them for all my rifles since discovering them a little while ago. The rings use plastic inserts to negate the requirement to lap the rings and are available with different thickness inserts to allow for the adjustment of the POA.
Being able to mount a scope quickly and efficiently without lapping (and destroying the finish of the rings) makes a lot of sense. The plastic inserts protect the finish on the scope whilst holding it firm with a good grip 'footprint'. Great if you want to swap scopes onto another rifle.
I order my Burris rings on eBay
Sound moderator.
I chose an Aimsport Triton 50 moderator. It's a modular design that can be modified for multiple calibers and thread sizes, is very light, performs well and most importantly, comes with a five year unlimited round guarantee. No other manufacturer I could find will guarantee a product for unlimited use over five years. It got my .223 sounding like a .17hmr (suppressed).
The only other option I seriously considered was a little known make called Hausken from Norway. They have been producing moderators for many years and seem to be a bit of a closely guarded Norwegian secret. Their products include over the barrel moderators offering a 39+ db reduction. The only reason I did not order one of their products is that they do not offer a 5/8 UNF thread adaptor (only UNEF). Once again they have a modular design and can be cheaply altered for multiple applications.
I ordered my moderator from The Dorset Gun Co.
In the next post I will go through the technicalities of the build and some tests.
This build is designed as a cost effective and accurate 'upgrade' from rim fire shooting to a center fire rifle for target shooting and the occasional varmint (fox) when required.
The action.
I have chosen a Howa 1500 barreled action in .223 with a 24" heavy varmint barrel (1:9 twist).
I looked at various manufacturers and options available and chose this combination for the following reasons: Howa has a good reputation for build quality and overall finish. If it's good enough for a high end vendor like Weatherby then I think it will be good enough for me. I looked at the standard Remington 700 offerings and decided that, although they have a great aftermarket spares selection, the recent problems with newer rifle quality made me cautious. I took in to consideration other makes such as Tikka and Savage. Being based in the UK I have greater support for Howa and Tikka than I do for Remington and Savage. It is getting increasingly difficult to find U.S. companies willing (or able) to export to the U.K. so choosing a brand with more European support makes sense.
Cost is a factor. Howa is a decent base for a rifle at a great price point. To seal the deal they offer barreled actions on their own. As I was going to be selecting a chassis system it seemed like a good idea. No point buying a stock if I was going to discard it. This lowered costs still further.
The caliber was an easy choice as .223 Remington is light on the shoulder, cheap(ish) to feed and easy to follow through on target without having a spotter. With target potential running into hundreds of meters if seemed like a no brainer for me. With accuracy and follow through in mind I went for the 24" heavy barrel action with a 1:9 twist which should allow all but the heaviest loads. Being a heavy barrel it promotes stability and limits felt recoil. It wouldn't be my first choice for a rifle if I were lugging it round all day, but for a target gun where weight is not my primary concern, no problem. In the future, if I want to lighten it, I have the option to shorten it, flute it etc.
I ordered my action from The Dorset Gun Company who were able to offer me a picatinny rail and a rifle case as part of a great deal on the barreled action. The Dorset Gun Company's pricing and service is second to none.
The Stock.
I decided on a chassis system for solidity, accuracy and the bonus is that they don't need bedding. I chose an MDT HS3 chassis system with an MDT adjustable skeleton stock, a Hogue rubber finger grooved pistol grip and some polymer ten round mags. MDT make stocks for a wide variety of actions, Howa being one of them. The modular design of their system means that I am able to swap out standard AR15 grips, stocks and magazines from other manufacturers in the future. If I do decide to change rifles in the future I can do without throwing the entire chassis.
I did look at other chassis systems for the Howa from other suppliers like GRS. Although their systems are seriously good and very adjustable I didn't want to be tied into one manufacturers proprietary system, especially given that the GRS base system is nearly twice the price of my total order from MDT (I ordered some extra mags and rails).
What really swayed me was that MDT will be releasing an HS3 stock for my CZ455 so I get to train with my rim fire with the same look and feel as my center fire. Another great bonus of using a chassis system with a Howa is that I get a magazine conversion 'for free'.
I chose my MDT kit in FDE rather than black. I was pleasantly surprised with the colour when I received it. FDE always seems to look very light when photographed but rest assured it is actually darker in tone and not the 'few shades darker than magnolia paint' that many photographs would have you believe.
I ordered direct from MDT in Canada and was impressed with the speed and efficiency of the whole process. Remember; the prices shown on the MDT site are in Canadian rather than U.S. Dollars. That is a huge difference in exchange rates.
The Scope.
I had a spare Weaver V24 x 40 scope which seemed just right for his job. I fell in love with the Weaver V16 x 40 some time ago for my rim fires as their parallax adjustment rages from just 25 feet right out to infinity, ideal for rim fire fun. Weaver parallax adjustment is accurate too. Just dial in and forget. Couple that with great optics and repeatable adjustment and I was sold. I order them from Natchez shooting supplies in the U.S. at around half the U.K. retail price (depending on the exchange rate). When the exchange rate was good I ordered in a couple of scopes for my friends and treated myself to the V24 'just in case'. I'm glad I did because it fits this latest build very well.
Scope Rings.
I used Burris Signature rings (#420521) for this build. I use them for all my rifles since discovering them a little while ago. The rings use plastic inserts to negate the requirement to lap the rings and are available with different thickness inserts to allow for the adjustment of the POA.
Being able to mount a scope quickly and efficiently without lapping (and destroying the finish of the rings) makes a lot of sense. The plastic inserts protect the finish on the scope whilst holding it firm with a good grip 'footprint'. Great if you want to swap scopes onto another rifle.
I order my Burris rings on eBay
Sound moderator.
I chose an Aimsport Triton 50 moderator. It's a modular design that can be modified for multiple calibers and thread sizes, is very light, performs well and most importantly, comes with a five year unlimited round guarantee. No other manufacturer I could find will guarantee a product for unlimited use over five years. It got my .223 sounding like a .17hmr (suppressed).
The only other option I seriously considered was a little known make called Hausken from Norway. They have been producing moderators for many years and seem to be a bit of a closely guarded Norwegian secret. Their products include over the barrel moderators offering a 39+ db reduction. The only reason I did not order one of their products is that they do not offer a 5/8 UNF thread adaptor (only UNEF). Once again they have a modular design and can be cheaply altered for multiple applications.
I ordered my moderator from The Dorset Gun Co.
In the next post I will go through the technicalities of the build and some tests.
Last edited:
Well OP, you are going to alot more effort than I did with my Howa. I have a 24" heavy barrel that came with the scope and a Hogue overmolded stock. It is pictured beside my DPMS Bull 24. Both are quite capable of taking prairie dogs at 250-300 yards.
Be sure to post pics as your Howa project progresses.
Be sure to post pics as your Howa project progresses.
RigidCollision
Inactive
Quick and dirty pics...
Yes, congrats on your purchase. We will need pics.
These are my two small caliber critter-gitters.
Top is Rem 700 in 221 Fireball with a Boyd's stock (20" fluted barrel, Redfield wide field of view 3-10 scope).
Bottom is a Kimber Longmaster Classic in 223 (24" fluted barrel, Zeiss Conquest 4-14 scope).
These are my two small caliber critter-gitters.
Top is Rem 700 in 221 Fireball with a Boyd's stock (20" fluted barrel, Redfield wide field of view 3-10 scope).
Bottom is a Kimber Longmaster Classic in 223 (24" fluted barrel, Zeiss Conquest 4-14 scope).
FiveInADime
New member
Noooooice...Yes, congrats on your purchase. We will need pics.
These are my two small caliber critter-gitters.
Top is Rem 700 in 221 Fireball with a Boyd's stock (20" fluted barrel, Redfield wide field of view 3-10 scope).
Bottom is a Kimber Longmaster Classic in 223 (24" fluted barrel, Zeiss Conquest 4-14 scope).
I love that Kimber Longmaster. I built my .260 with that rifle in mind. Stainless action, 26" varmint barrel, walnut sporter stock.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
It took me a while to find a bullet/load combination the Kimber liked.
No go at all on 5 grain bullets. 40 grainers one hole groups. 63 grains up, one hole groups. it does not like the middle weight bullets.
When I'm on and it's on I have a lot of fun. I was able to out shoot the local SWAT guy at the range and his buddies razzed him beyond belief.
No go at all on 5 grain bullets. 40 grainers one hole groups. 63 grains up, one hole groups. it does not like the middle weight bullets.
When I'm on and it's on I have a lot of fun. I was able to out shoot the local SWAT guy at the range and his buddies razzed him beyond belief.