Real Danger.

Quote. mayosligo. British government does not trust it's subjects to own firearms. With this reality, one side still obtained weapons and found other means to wage war. At the same time so did Loyalists.

Not true. • There were 141,775 firearm certificates on issue on 31 March 2010, an increase of 2% compared with the end of March 2009
• 580,653 shotgun certificates were on issue on 31 March 2010, 1% up
• Those certificates cover a total of 1.8m guns.

N Ireland.

In Northern Ireland today, 61,144 people currently have firearms certificates. The PSNI couldn't indicate the number of guns those licences legally covered, but in 2006, when there were 58,000 licences, they covered more than 144,000 guns, one for every 12 people.
 
Manta I will make one last post as I don't really have much to add.

You give several examples of what may put a person at increased risk of violence, all of which seem to be perfectly normal activities to me: Being the wrong religion, having the wrong job, being critical of the wrong person or organization, etc. Aren't these things the right of free men? Doesn't requiring permission from some governmental bureaucrat to properly protect yourself, who may not be sympathetic to your particular choice, seem wrong to you? Do these folks (cops, soldiers, prison workers, Protestants, Catholics, journalists, outspoken activists of any kind, financial advisers, doctors, lawyers, Indian chiefs, etc.) have the same lack of concern for their safety as you do?
 
Quote. have the same lack of concern for their safety as you do.

I have concern for my safety. I take what i think are sensible precautions. The risk is less now so i take that into account.

I have security precautions at my house alarms noisy pet dogs. When going to the range checking that i am not be followed.
I us to check under my car for bombs. A favorite weapon here among some organisations. A lot of people died because they failed check.
 
Not saying that it is happening or will happen any time soon but should the British government decide to impose its will they have little to even make the government blink... How little it would take for the isles to loose the freedoms they have...

Arms in the hands of the people keeps all kinds of criminals just a little weary...
 
Manta. Still not sure what your point is but back to your stats because you have become increasingly selective in what you choose to use. What is the criteria for being eligible for a firearm certificate? How many members of the UDA, IRA and countless off shoots of these groups including gun runners and drug dealers who used the groups as covers applied for such permits?
But again, you site statistics from the last ten years for an issue that is centuries old and then want to compare it to the US.
 
More than 3,600 people were killed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Between 1969 and the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 about 2,000 civilians, 1,000 members of the security forces and 600 paramilitaries died.


Unfortunately most were civilians.

The term "civilian" can be overly broad. For example, someone not actively fighting but still providing supplies or arms to one faction or another might be classified as a civilian, but they would still be at greater risk than someone not affiliated with any factions or security forces at all. Likewise, someone who works at a military base, police station, or other such facility would likely be classified as a civilian but would also be at greater risk than someone who works at a department store, restaurant, or other such unaffiliated private business.

If we break down the numbers you provided in your first post, we find that on average just over 124 people were killed per year during "The Troubles" (this is assuming that The Troubles lasted for 30 years). Assuming a population of 2,000,000 people (again, a number taken from you original post), that breaks down to a murder rate of approximately 6.2 per 100,000 people. By comparison, the U.S. homicide rate (murder and non-negligent manslaughter) in 1998 (the last year of The Troubles) was 6.3 per 100,000 people which was lower than any year since 1991 (the rate in 1991 was 9.8 per 100,000) according to the FBI.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

The fact that Northern Ireland's homicide rate was lower than that of the U.S. despite The Troubles further indicates that random acts of violence were (and probably still are) rare. This would make sense because the various factions in play during The Troubles needed at least a certain degree of support amongst the population in order to sustain themselves. While religion was undoubtedly a large factor in these various groups' support amongst the populace, random victimization of innocent, unaffiliated people is consistent with neither Catholic nor Protestant beliefs and I very much doubt that the majority of the populace, Catholic and Protestant alike, would have been able to rationalize such tactics for very long.

Also, there are other types of violent crime besides homicide and assault. Rape is another violent crime that comes to mind and one that would more likely be a random act rather than associated with The Troubles or a similar political upheaval. In 2010/11, there were 525 recorded rapes in Northern Ireland.

http://www.psni.police.uk/1._10_11_recorded_crime.pdf

Again assuming a population of 2 million people, that breaks down to a rape rate of 26.25 per 100,000 while the U.S. rape rate was higher 29.1 and 27.5 for 2009 and 2010 respectively.

The reason that these statistics are pertinent to the discussion is because you inferred with your original post that, because Northern Ireland is a more dangerous place to live than the U.S., you could not understand why people in the U.S. feel the need to carry a gun on and about their person when such a practice is, in your opinion, unnecessary in Northern Ireland. The problem is that, statistically, Northern Ireland is not a more dangerous place than the United States is so your line of thinking falls apart.

More importantly, however, gun laws are a rather poor predictor of violent crime rates from one country to another. While I don't have the figures handy at the moment, I compared the violent crime rates of the United States to those of the United Kingdom as a whole, Australia, and Switzerland for a research paper a few years ago. What I found was that the UK (which has much more restrictive firearms laws throughout most of the country than does most of the U.S.) had a substantially lower violent crime rate, Australia (which also has more restrictive gun laws than the U.S.) had about the same violent crime rate, and Switzerland (which has gun laws that are less restrictive than the U.S. in many ways) had a lower violent crime rate than any of the other three countries compared. The conclusion that I came to at that time was that gun laws and violent crime rates did not correlate and that other factors had just as much, if not more, effect on violent crime than gun laws.

The bottom line is this, not everyone feels the need to carry a gun and that's O.K., but please don't judge me because my choice is different than yours. While I try to avoid trouble and live as low-risk a lifestyle as I possibly can, my personal experiences have shown me that, in spite of my best efforts, trouble can find me on occasion and that carrying a means of protecting myself is a prudent thing to do. I really cannot explain it any further without divulging more personal information than I care to on a public forum, but it's a personal choice and not one that I take lightly.
 
An Armed Society is a Polite Society ;)

I know in many country's the only people that are allowed to have firearms are the Police, Military, & Criminals that obtain them. I don't think any person can be over prepared for any threat. It's their life, their family, & their well being. I wish more people shared our view's of being armed & exercising our right to bear arms. I am proud to live & be American where you have so many freedoms that some take for granted.
 
Quote. mayosligo Manta. Still not sure what your point is but back to your stats because you have become increasingly selective in what you choose to use. What is the criteria for being eligible for a firearm certificate? How many members of the UDA, IRA and countless off shoots of these groups including gun runners and drug dealers who used the groups as covers applied for such permits?

The police have information on every individual in N Ireland. Intelligence on who is in the groups from informers and other sources is used when someone applies for a firearms certificate. Some will get trough but very few.
 
QuoThe conclusion that I came to at that time was that gun laws and violent crime rates did not correlate and that other factors had just as much, if not more, effect on violent crime than gun laws.

I would agree that gun ownership does not have a big effect on violent crime. N Ireland has one of the lowest crime rates in the UK excluding some terrorist activity much less than in the past.
As in America some areas were much more dangerous than others. In the past i would have carried a firearm because my work would have taken me into security force bases making me in some organisations a legitimate target. Things have changed now i don't feel the need to carry a firearm.

My point i look at the threat level as best as i can none of us have a crystal ball. I then decide what measures i need to minimise the threat.
After that i don't feel the need at this time to carry a firearm just in case something happens.
When i see posts saying some can't go to the toilet in there one house without having a firearm beside them makes me think i am glad i don't feel that threatened.

On the subject of crime in the UK sadly two unarmed police women were shot dead in England today.

www.telegraph.co.uk › News › Picture Galleries › UK News
 
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Some times i think some get a bit carried away threat and how to deal with it.

There are valid concerns i think some get overly concerned.

Stats are nice and all and I use them as well. However as pointed out several times, it isn't the percentage that it will happen, but the consequence that might result.

A couple of relevant points however is that what you perceive as our overreaction is nothing like your government's overreaction of limiting firearms ownership. Either way, in Ireland or in the US, the one thing that is remarkably clear is that the cops do a poor job of protecting individual citizens during an individiual crisis. How often are your cops present at the average subject's (notice I didn't say "citizen") home to stop a home invasion? The stats on that would be very close to zero. You don't have enough cops to be there before the crisis starts and the ones you have aren't that good to stop very many once they start and somebody has to phone for help. That isn't a rude comment about your cops. That is the exact problem we have here. It is the nature of police protection where you have only a few cops for all the citizens.

I would agree that gun ownership does not have a big effect on violent crime.

As stated, this statement is woefully wrong, but only because you likely did not state what you intended. What you probably meant to say was that gun ownership does not have a big affect on violent crime rates. I would go further to say that here in the states, there is no causative relationship between gun ownership and violent crime rates. "More guns less crime" is a farce. There are simply WAY too many factors that have greater influences on violent crime than gun ownership.

HOWEVER, and this is a huge however, at the individual level, the presence of a gun for self defense often has a 100% positive impact on the safety of the citizen to protect her/himself. That is causative. As far as I am concerned, the individual level is on the only level where the statistics matter. After all, it doesn't matter to me if the violent crime rate is down maybe even down by a large amount if I am the one being attacked. "Crime rates" are not about individuals, but whole populations and I am not a whole population. I am an individual.
 
We're conditioned to like guns. They start it by making us watch Elmer Fudd chase the Rabbit with a gun, and every action movie has the hero who has his stash of weaponry. It is curious though, that when the action movie hero has hidden guns, he is cheered on for being smart and prepared, yet if a citizen does, or carries around his home, he's alluded to being paranoid and unstable.

This is a dangerous planet. At this time, the world is currently going insane and in the United States in particular. Our Government is currently waging war against it's citizens trying to usher in a Police State. The criminals are almost totally unchecked here, because that serves their purpose for hastening. Everyone is trigger happy here. Who wouldn't want to carry a gun? lol.
 
Manta, I have family in northern Ireland so I know a little about how it was and is. What most people that don't live in the USA fail to grasp is that in many areas in the us the crime rate is held very low precisely because most homes are armed and criminals run a very real risk of getting shot. Sure, some people may go a little overboard, but it's the culture of self reliance and protection that make many places so crime free. I mean, the places where the crime is worst in the us is where firearms are prohibited or severely restricted.

It's a different culture but the root isn't fear, it's self reliance.
 
It's a different culture but the root isn't fear, it's self reliance.

I agree 100%. I think that's the main point manta's missing here.

As far as firearms restrictions vs. crime rates go- I see little correlation either way. Indianapolis has a low violent crime rate, lots of guns. Chicago has lots of restrictions and a high crime rate. But New Orleans has one of the highest murder rates in the country, and very loose restrictions on firearms.
 
Ireland seems to have 'faction' issues.
Here, we have major underlying drug issues driving gangs into faction issues, and turning individuals into animals.
What I'm saying is that crime seems to have no relationship to gun ownership.
That said, I can't wait for a cop to come around a corner if I'm cornered by one of the animals.
 
I would guess that most of those reading this forum keep a loaded gun in their home, reasonably accessible, for home defense. I frequently have grandchildren at my home, so my home defense gun is in a GunVault, which I consider a reasonable compromise between safety and accessibiltiy. But as much as I like guns, and feel it is prudent to be prepared, I do think it a bit odd when I read here about someone who keeps one or more guns in every room of the house, who wears a holstered gun at all times within their home, or who lives each moment in anticipation of a horde of thugs breaking through their front door. Personally I would not live somewhere where I could not legally possess a firearm for my personal and family protection, but I don't live my daily life in deathly fear or anticipation of a life and death battle at any moment.
 
vito. I understand your point. that being said, is there any reason why you don't feel comfortable having a handgun out of the gunvault when the grandkids aren't visiting? //example: knowing they are coming tomorrow so locking it up at bedtime(I'm guessing the vault is in master bedroom)//
 
The risks of forgetting to lock it up just one time are too great to take a chance. The GunVault gives me peace of mind.
 
vito, I am with you partially on that. I don't wait for the mrng as an example to lock it up(or sometimes both of them up if I have two revolvers out). I do it the day before. If you can't remember that is understandable. Also, some people might have a handgun out and then go take a nap or go to sleep without bothering to bring the handgun from the family room to the bedroom with them as an example. This is a little pointless, as now if there is a burglary or other scenario you might be worse for the wear and double whammied(actually providing a firearm to assialant/burglar without having a HD weapon near you possibly).

That being said, I meant to mention in my original posting to you when you did make some at least possible valid points....if you ever knew someone close or heaven for bid went thru a dire situation, you might very well change your viewpoints on this topic. Better to be safe than sorry(which is an oxymoron here because that is what in essence you are doing). There really is no wrong answer, but maybe you can little by little just have it out for a night if they are gone for a week as a starter or something. I found it like an alarm in the house which I love. It is good to know you have that securtity just in case while watching that late-night movie or whatever else is on the tube.:cool: //all the best, gunz//

ps- I have found it is pretty easy to remember, so I figure the same would probably be the same for you since you are proactive about gun safety, safes, etc which I am. My friend grew up in KY; it is normal for him to do the counter drawer thing...this doesn't work for me, but it is a persoanl decision on the gun owner as long as they take responsibility for the weapon(s) andor their actions...
 
To youngguns4life: You make some goods points, but another factor in my case is my wife. Despite being married to me for for over 40 years she has never wavered in her dislike of guns. Leaving an unlocked gun in the house, even when no one but the two of us are home, would leave to endless problems. So to keep peace in my home, I again fall back on the compromise of using a finger-keypad GunVault for a home defense weapon, plus a decent home security alarm system.
 
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